MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[wiz]

Both years the 4/5 matchup was decided by a single possession. Four was far too restrictive in my mind, and I'd prefer to see them revert to all 8 making the field.

I would agree if it wasn't for the fact that the AQ is attached to the MIAA tournament. I would prefer the "best" team represent the MIAA in the NCAA tournament, not the best team over a 2-3 game stretch.

I wouldn't mind the AQ going to the outright MIAA champion and in cases of a tie, the tie is broken by the MIAA tournament.

I'm not sure that fewer teams really protects the No. 1 seed. Their automatic inclusion into the semifinals gets offset by the easier path for the other top seeds to make it there as well.

Using my efficiency ratings I calculated the chance that each team would win the tournament*:

No. Teams:   8     6     4
Albion       48%   49%   47%
Calvin       28%   33%   33%
Trine        9%    7%    13%
Adrian       5%    4%    7%
Alma         5%    4%    0%
Hope         4%    3%    0%
Kalamazoo    1%    0%    0%
Olivet       0%    0%    0%

*simple calculation using neutral site games, so Albion should be a bit higher and the rest a bit lower.

I agree that 8 is best for all reasons you cited and more.

For those schools that have introduced a new coach and/or system it may take a little longer to get everyone acclimated. For those teams that have graduated a significant amount of talent, it may take a little longer for new recruits to get developed. Having a tournament with less than all 8 teams included prevents these programs from developing their teams to be tournament ready by this time of year.  Let's not penalize teams for early season losses, let's reward them for late season adjustments.

[sac]

The MIAA was a full tournament from 1992 to 2011.   With only 7 teams from 92 to 98, and again from 2001 to 2004.  All other tournaments were 8 teams.

A  #8 seed never beat a #1 in the 9 games
A #7 seed never beat a #2 in 20 games
A #6 seed beat a #3 on 2 occassions
         1997   Adrian over Kzoo
         2001   Adrian over Olivet   --Adr was tied for #5 in the standings, lost the tie break
A #5 seed beat a #4 on 5 occassions
        1995   Albion over Olivet   tied in the standings
        1997   Alma over Albion    tied in the standings
        2003   Adrian over Kalamazoo
        2008   Adrian over Trine
        2011   Adrian over Olivet

In 69 contest the higher seed, or home team,  went 62-7, or really only 5 "upsets"


Forcing the #1 and #2 seeds to play an extra game against a team with a poor record diminishes their regional ranking criteria.  A 6 team tournament gives #3 and #4 a chance to enhance their win%.

This is why 6 is now the tournament format used by most smart D3 conferences.  There is math behind it.

Personally, yes, 8 would be better for everyone, but its not smart do that with today's regional ranking system.
         

[sac]

Albion loses 1 Senior,  Alex Warman.

They can return everyone else
They have a couple JV guys they like
They will get at least one recruit that can help them again.
You may rightfully pencil in the Brits as your 2021 favorites.

Trine has nice players in their program, will take time but they'll end up top 4
Adrian has a lot of good players in its program, lose Kalonji, young guys developed as year went on--Harris will by for MVP
Hope can return everyone but Zandstra/Opple, need to hit the weight room, maybe practice shooting a little

....This might be your to 4,

Olivet could be the team most likely to make a big jump next year, depends on a couple "things"
Calvin has room to have a big and good Freshmen class, Sall's first class probably needs to be a good one
Kzoo was disappointing with what they had returning, lose a bit but 9 Sr's next year.   small Fr. Class this year will be a hole in the future.
Alma loses a bit, but some good young players around

Quick view today, we'll see what the summer holds.

[MaroonKnighty]

All-MIAA
https://www.miaa.org/sports/mbkb/2019-20/releases/AllMIAA2020

Great to Shymanski on the list.  Doing the Wildcats proud!

Wildcats?

Ada Christian, I think he's the first one from there to play at Calvin.

[Jameswys]

On to Albion on Friday night.  Will the 3rd time be the charm?  We were right there in both regular season matchups with Albion, but Davis has been a thorn in our sides in both games.

He's been the thorn in the side of most of the league, starting with the ESPN quality finish in Trine last year and his buzzer beaters this year. Props to him for being 'that guy' for Albion when they need it.

[almcguirejr]

All-MIAA
https://www.miaa.org/sports/mbkb/2019-20/releases/AllMIAA2020

Great to Shymanski on the list.  Doing the Wildcats proud!

Wildcats?

Ada Christian, I think he's the first one from there to play at Calvin.

Thanks

[HOPEful]

No. Teams:   8     6     4
Albion       48%   49%   47%
Calvin       28%   33%   33%
Trine        9%    7%    13%
Adrian       5%    4%    7%
Alma         5%    4%    0%
Hope         4%    3%    0%
Kalamazoo    1%    0%    0%
Olivet       0%    0%    0%

*simple calculation using neutral site games, so Albion should be a bit higher and the rest a bit lower.

It might not protect the top seed, but it insures that the 5-8 teams don't get it. The AQ going to one of those teams 1 out of 10 seasons, is in my opinion, one too many times. And for what? Just so Olivet can play Albion for the third time this season?

I like the reasoning sac used for a 6 team tournament, and will concede it makes the most sense. Still, I preferred 4.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

No. Teams:   8     6     4
Albion       48%   49%   47%
Calvin       28%   33%   33%
Trine        9%    7%    13%
Adrian       5%    4%    7%
Alma         5%    4%    0%
Hope         4%    3%    0%
Kalamazoo    1%    0%    0%
Olivet       0%    0%    0%

*simple calculation using neutral site games, so Albion should be a bit higher and the rest a bit lower.

It might not protect the top seed, but it insures that the 5-8 teams don't get it. The AQ going to one of those teams 1 out of 10 seasons, is in my opinion, one too many times. And for what? Just so Olivet can play Albion for the third time this season?

I like the reasoning sac used for a 6 team tournament, and will concede it makes the most sense. Still, I preferred 4.

I have always preferred all 8 teams - would be even better if they could run it like a D1 school - all 8 teams, one location, 4 games on Thu, 2 on Fri, Championship on Sat.  I'd schedule my vacation days now for every year in the future to get to watch that every year.  I know it will never happen (too costly, too much time away from school) but it is fun to think about. 

Giving every team a shot in the tournament is fine with me.  A Cinderella winning it - love that too.  Sure if you are the top dog, that would hurt - but if you are the top dog, then take care of business.  It's not like you didn't know before the season started that you have to win that tournament.  I actually prefer to think of the conference tournament as week 0 of the NCAA tourney.  The excitement and atmosphere for the fans and the players is really great.  Watch a lower tier D1 conference tournament, and that is exactly how they see it - an extension of the NCAA - and getting the win to go to "the big dance" may be the biggest win those teams ever get to experience. 

Regarding the part I bolded above - why should we do that?  Look, I'm no fan of participation trophies or the like (actually made my son smash one he got years ago), but why should we ensure that 50% of the league has no shot, not give a sh!t about the end of their season, have no motivation the last few games, etc.  I think that dilutes the last 3rd of the league season potentially.

[wiz]

No. Teams:   8     6     4
Albion       48%   49%   47%
Calvin       28%   33%   33%
Trine        9%    7%    13%
Adrian       5%    4%    7%
Alma         5%    4%    0%
Hope         4%    3%    0%
Kalamazoo    1%    0%    0%
Olivet       0%    0%    0%

*simple calculation using neutral site games, so Albion should be a bit higher and the rest a bit lower.

It might not protect the top seed, but it insures that the 5-8 teams don't get it. The AQ going to one of those teams 1 out of 10 seasons, is in my opinion, one too many times. And for what? Just so Olivet can play Albion for the third time this season?

I like the reasoning sac used for a 6 team tournament, and will concede it makes the most sense. Still, I preferred 4.

I have always preferred all 8 teams - would be even better if they could run it like a D1 school - all 8 teams, one location, 4 games on Thu, 2 on Fri, Championship on Sat.  I'd schedule my vacation days now for every year in the future to get to watch that every year.  I know it will never happen (too costly, too much time away from school) but it is fun to think about. 

Giving every team a shot in the tournament is fine with me.  A Cinderella winning it - love that too.  Sure if you are the top dog, that would hurt - but if you are the top dog, then take care of business.  It's not like you didn't know before the season started that you have to win that tournament.  I actually prefer to think of the conference tournament as week 0 of the NCAA tourney.  The excitement and atmosphere for the fans and the players is really great.  Watch a lower tier D1 conference tournament, and that is exactly how they see it - an extension of the NCAA - and getting the win to go to "the big dance" may be the biggest win those teams ever get to experience. 

Regarding the part I bolded above - why should we do that?  Look, I'm no fan of participation trophies or the like (actually made my son smash one he got years ago), but why should we ensure that 50% of the league has no shot, not give a sh!t about the end of their season, have no motivation the last few games, etc.  I think that dilutes the last 3rd of the league season potentially.

Exactly!

[KnightSlappy]

I agree 100% with FDF except for the part about participation trophies, which I think are appropriate mementos in youth sports.

[HOPEful]

Regarding the part I bolded above... why should we ensure that 50% of the league has no shot, not give a sh!t about the end of their season, have no motivation the last few games, etc.  I think that dilutes the last 3rd of the league season potentially.

I would argue it the other direction. By giving everyone a chance in the conference tournament, you are diluting the regular season for the teams at the top. Winning the MIAA regular season loses meaning if you don't win the MIAA tournament and get a pool C bid. Why play a regular season other than just to seed the conference tournament? To me, I would much rather dilute the second half of the season for the last 3rd of the league than the top. As a Hope fan, if given the option of either winning the conference outright or winning the MIAA tournament, I would choose the tournament 10 times out of 10, because it guarantees a spot in the NCAA tournament. In my opinion, Albion running away with the regular season should be more meaningful than 1 seed and hosting the conference tournament. 

[KnightSlappy]

Regarding the part I bolded above... why should we ensure that 50% of the league has no shot, not give a sh!t about the end of their season, have no motivation the last few games, etc.  I think that dilutes the last 3rd of the league season potentially.

I would argue it the other direction. By giving everyone a chance in the conference tournament, you are diluting the regular season for the teams at the top. Winning the MIAA regular season loses meaning if you don't win the MIAA tournament and get a pool C bid. Why play a regular season other than just to seed the conference tournament? To me, I would much rather dilute the second half of the season for the last 3rd of the league than the top. As a Hope fan, if given the option of either winning the conference outright or winning the MIAA tournament, I would choose the tournament 10 times out of 10, because it guarantees a spot in the NCAA tournament. In my opinion, Albion running away with the regular season should be more meaningful than 1 seed and hosting the conference tournament.

The MIAA regular season champion is the MIAA Champion. That title is something to be celebrated. It only loses meaning if you choose not to embrace that.

[ziggy]

Regarding the part I bolded above... why should we ensure that 50% of the league has no shot, not give a sh!t about the end of their season, have no motivation the last few games, etc.  I think that dilutes the last 3rd of the league season potentially.

I would argue it the other direction. By giving everyone a chance in the conference tournament, you are diluting the regular season for the teams at the top. Winning the MIAA regular season loses meaning if you don't win the MIAA tournament and get a pool C bid. Why play a regular season other than just to seed the conference tournament? To me, I would much rather dilute the second half of the season for the last 3rd of the league than the top. As a Hope fan, if given the option of either winning the conference outright or winning the MIAA tournament, I would choose the tournament 10 times out of 10, because it guarantees a spot in the NCAA tournament. In my opinion, Albion running away with the regular season should be more meaningful than 1 seed and hosting the conference tournament.

What is interesting about all this discussion is that the NCAA grants conferences automatic bids but it is up to the individual conferences to determine how to award that bid. Conference tournaments are not a requirement, they are just something most conferences have decided to do. Apparently the MIAA member institutions are perfectly fine to let the AQ go to a conference tournament champion rather than the regular season champion.

[HOPEful]

The MIAA regular season champion is the MIAA Champion. That title is something to be celebrated. It only loses meaning if you choose not to embrace that.

I don't think it's a matter of embracing it or not. If Albion loses in the MIAA tournament and gets left at the table by the selection committee, Albion fans and players will rightfully be disappointed in this season, despite having ran away with the conference in the regular season. My guess is many of those same fans and players would have considered it a "more successful" season had they finished second in the conference but won the conference tournament, simply due to playing in the NCAA playoffs. Very possible situation as an example... Let's say Calvin knocks off Albion in the MIAA Championship game and Albion gets left at the table by the selection committee. Which outcome would you look back at more fondly as a fan?

- 2nd place in regular season, MIAA MVP, and MIAA representative in the NCAA Tournament or...
- Outright MIAA Champion

Of course this is all personal preference and opinion. I would just personally prefer to give more weight to the regular conference season than the 3 games following.

[Grutte Dirk]

The MIAA regular season champion is the MIAA Champion. That title is something to be celebrated. It only loses meaning if you choose not to embrace that.

- 2nd place in regular season, MIAA MVP, and MIAA representative in the NCAA Tournament or...
- Outright MIAA Champion

I'd choose the NCAA bid.