MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[HoopsCoach]

Calvin has postponed both this week and now per MIAA site Trine makes the trip to Holland Saturday instead (since they had their game with Adrian postponed). Makes logistical sense.

[sac]

I'm just happy they're playing basketball occasionally.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Hmm...  Kind of a theme from you regarding the coaching, and while you may be right on some aspects of your analysis, you should at least be honest with the readers here that you (as a parent of a player) may have a slightly skewed view of things.

Not quite. Former player. And theme? Haven't posted since last year, lol. But if you can't see the issues I pointed out regardless, you don't have an eye for the game. Culture by the way can impact good players and average players, starters and bench guys. So to insinuate that my opinion is sour grapes is way off base. Calling it like I see. You don't have to agree but argue me how I'm wrong rather than brush it off as the opinion of a program parent...

My "theme" comment was that your posts have been consistent regarding your assessment of the coaching and the players - nothing wrong with that, I simply do not happen to share all of your opinions.  I would expect that we can disagree without getting nasty "you don't have an eye for the game" - really? 

If I missed the mark about you being a parent, that's my bad.  It is just quite the coincidence for your email address (visible to any poster who clicks on your profile) to share the name of one of the current players. 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a player's parent can't offer opinions or contribute to these boards in many good ways, in fact others have done so in the past.  I would expect that if that is the case, said parent would simply identify themselves as a parent.  If we are all totally honest with ourselves, none of us have 20/20 vision when we see our own kids - and as a parent and grandparent, I wouldn't want it any other way. 

[hornets76542]

Before Kzoo loses the rest of their games, I want to give some credit to the K coaching staff for getting their guys ready to play with so little practice time. Starting the season against one of the best teams in the country that has already played nine games isn't ideal, but they rebounded nicely against teams that also had already played many games. Obviously Olivet and Alma aren't world-beaters, but winning is worth something.

[Gregory Sager]

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a player's parent can't offer opinions or contribute to these boards in many good ways, in fact others have done so in the past.  I would expect that if that is the case, said parent would simply identify themselves as a parent.

I've observed over the years on d3boards.com that quite a few parents of players (usually dads) have tried running underneath the radar as posters. It tends to either be the case that they don't consider their relationship to one of the players to be relevant to their observations (which I suspect is sometimes a matter of denial), or because they're deliberately trying to air a grievance with the coach or tout their kid (or both) in a stealthy manner, using anonymity as a means to convey the impression of impartiality.

[oldknight]

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a player's parent can't offer opinions or contribute to these boards in many good ways, in fact others have done so in the past.  I would expect that if that is the case, said parent would simply identify themselves as a parent.

I've observed over the years on d3boards.com that quite a few parents of players (usually dads) have tried running underneath the radar as posters. It tends to either be the case that they don't consider their relationship to one of the players to be relevant to their observations (which I suspect is sometimes a matter of denial), or because they're deliberately trying to air a grievance with the coach or tout their kid (or both) in a stealthy manner, using anonymity as a means to convey the impression of impartiality.

A fair point about how familial relationships can bias one's opinions. On the other hand--with respect to the claims made in the HoopsCoach post of February 15--we still don't have any substantive counterargument to his statements other than what Dutchman17 posted the day following, and that reply largely agreed with HoopsCoach. I have no dog in the fight, but sure would like to have someone tell us where HoopsCoach is wrong. Using the ad hominem fallacy as a defense doesn't do that.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

I have no dog in the fight, but sure would like to have someone tell us where HoopsCoach is wrong.

A single example - he used the departure of 3 players last season as an indication of a larger "cultural" problem.  I am aware of the details of the departures (which will not be shared as they are no ones business) to know that is a completely false equivalency.  I suspect HoopsCoach knows that as well, but is using them to make his point despite them lacking evidence of a cultural or systemic issue. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I think I have said this before here, if not it was on air, but has anyone considered when it comes to recruiting especially at Hope and Calvin that the landscape has changed? That maybe the religious (sic) side of things isn't as much of a draw as it has been in the past? That recruits are willing to go to different schools, especially in an age of wide reach and understanding outside our towns and regions, because they now know of other institutions and such? That going to Hope and Calvin because parents, relatives, or "that's what has been done" just isn't a driving force anymore?

That or the talent in general has spread out as well?

I think the fact more players are good and more are willing to go to different institutions than the "usual" ones is one of the biggest reasons DIII men's basketball (and slowly women's basketball) has seen such diversity across so many teams.

[HOPEful]

I think I have said this before here, if not it was on air, but has anyone considered when it comes to recruiting especially at Hope and Calvin that the landscape has changed? That maybe the religious (sic) side of things isn't as much of a draw as it has been in the past? That recruits are willing to go to different schools, especially in an age of wide reach and understanding outside our towns and regions, because they now know of other institutions and such? That going to Hope and Calvin because parents, relatives, or "that's what has been done" just isn't a driving force anymore?

That or the talent in general has spread out as well?

I think the fact more players are good and more are willing to go to different institutions than the "usual" ones is one of the biggest reasons DIII men's basketball (and slowly women's basketball) has seen such diversity across so many teams.

Although I disagree with some of the verbiage, this is spot on. I still think as a private Christian college, Hope has and will continue to have, a huge draw. This is proven by the fact that in the midst of a pandemic where most schools are struggling, Hope's numbers are increasing. Calvin and Albion are struggling financially, but as an institution, Hope remains strong. But that doesn't always naturally translate to basketball. Hope and Calvin have both been losing players for a decade to Cornerstone. Players that in the 80's and 90's would have ended up at Hope or Calvin because that's where an RCA or CRC family sent their kids. So maybe that's what you meant by "the religious side of things"? Today's generation is much more willing to explore options outside of the family norm of going to Hope or Calvin. Hope, for instance, does not offer as competitive financial aid packages as some the other schools they are recruiting against. If Cornerstone, an NAIA school, can offer cheaper tuition AND an athletic scholarship AND keep the small, Christian college atmosphere... it's an uphill recruiting battle. I mean, it's the prettiest college on the East Beltline!

Personally, I've been impressed by the players that Mitchell has been able to recruit to Hope. I also know there is a long list of players that Hope was very very close on getting, many of which could have made big impacts. I'm excited to see how Dykhouse and Thomas develop over the next two seasons and what kind of team Mitchell can build around them. If their junior and senior seasons go poorly, that's probably the earliest I will be willing to engage in any "Is it time for Hope to move on from Mitchell?" talks.

[HOPEful]

I would love to see a list of seniors who intend to use their extra year of eligibility vs. senior on track to graduate and intend to do so...

[sac]

I think I've mentioned for about a decade the landscape in the MIAA was changing and has changed and is continuing to change.  No one seems to listen .

But anyway.  Tucked into this article Almc linked a couple weeks ago was a handy chart that illustrates pretty nicely just how expensive Hope and Calvin are relative to their conference peers.  It was jarring to me.   This might make one or two kids (or more) every year go elsewhere that were slam dunks for Hope/Calvin a decade ago.  One or two kids can be the difference between winning a lot and not.   

Interesting article from the Detroit Free Press about the challenges facing Albion College and other small colleges.

https://www.freep.com/in-depth/news/education/2021/02/11/michigan-liberal-arts-college-tuition-discount/6310395002/

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I think I have said this before here, if not it was on air, but has anyone considered when it comes to recruiting especially at Hope and Calvin that the landscape has changed? That maybe the religious (sic) side of things isn't as much of a draw as it has been in the past? That recruits are willing to go to different schools, especially in an age of wide reach and understanding outside our towns and regions, because they now know of other institutions and such? That going to Hope and Calvin because parents, relatives, or "that's what has been done" just isn't a driving force anymore?

That or the talent in general has spread out as well?

I think the fact more players are good and more are willing to go to different institutions than the "usual" ones is one of the biggest reasons DIII men's basketball (and slowly women's basketball) has seen such diversity across so many teams.

Although I disagree with some of the verbiage, this is spot on. I still think as a private Christian college, Hope has and will continue to have, a huge draw. This is proven by the fact that in the midst of a pandemic where most schools are struggling, Hope's numbers are increasing. Calvin and Albion are struggling financially, but as an institution, Hope remains strong. But that doesn't always naturally translate to basketball. Hope and Calvin have both been losing players for a decade to Cornerstone. Players that in the 80's and 90's would have ended up at Hope or Calvin because that's where an RCA or CRC family sent their kids. So maybe that's what you meant by "the religious side of things"? Today's generation is much more willing to explore options outside of the family norm of going to Hope or Calvin. Hope, for instance, does not offer as competitive financial aid packages as some the other schools they are recruiting against. If Cornerstone, an NAIA school, can offer cheaper tuition AND an athletic scholarship AND keep the small, Christian college atmosphere... it's an uphill recruiting battle. I mean, it's the prettiest college on the East Beltline!

Personally, I've been impressed by the players that Mitchell has been able to recruit to Hope. I also know there is a long list of players that Hope was very very close on getting, many of which could have made big impacts. I'm excited to see how Dykhouse and Thomas develop over the next two seasons and what kind of team Mitchell can build around them. If their junior and senior seasons go poorly, that's probably the earliest I will be willing to engage in any "Is it time for Hope to move on from Mitchell?" talks.

First I am specifically speaking of athletes - I don't pretend to know what all prospective college students are considering in their decisions. I also realize some may choose Hope, Calvin, and others for reasons other than anything those institutions like to celebrate or promote (and I do mean anything; students find different reasons in their choices).

As for "the religious side of things," I am aware that institutions like Hope, Calvin, Messiah, Wheatons, Yeshiva, and others promote the religious aspects of their institutions. The religious backgrounds, how their religious foundations are seen in aspects of the institution, and even the rules that students must follow ... plus many other examples. So the idea that they maybe belong to a church that each school is associated with, or the families' histories of where they go or what their beliefs are, and much more many not be as impactful in terms of where they go for college. They may still have the same religious beliefs, they just don't feel they have to attend a specific university to continue those beliefs. I hope that makes sense (a few things going on around me right now).

You are in the area I'm talking about how this generation, and to some extent the last, are more willing to look around and and explore options that are outside the family norms or traditions and many other reasons. The simple idea that they are a shoe-in (paraphrasing for ease) to attend a Calvin or Hope because of previous relationships and such just doesn't hold true any more. And to be clear, that is true in a lot of places other than Hope, Calvin, etc.

And your point about being financially competitive and such is also a significant part of this. I know that from my alma mater when they tighten things up (for whatever reason) and suddenly athletics hit the brakes in terms of getting the same interest and talent they had in the past (there is more I could share that infuriates me). We see this in a lot of places where how aggressive or whatever an institution is does have an impact on many, many things.

There are a lot of factors into recruiting and I know I just am aware of a small part of them. I simply wanted to point out that in the past I think recruiting may have come easier (not to be dismissive of how difficult it is) to get certain recruits because the religious aspects of either institution, or the family history and beliefs, or other things that seemed to set up pipelines essentially for a lot of schools. Those pipelines are just no longer as solid or as straight as they used to be. Prospective students simply have different ways of thinking and priorities now (for lack of a better way to describe it).

[pointlem]

If folks are suggesting that it's harder for Hope and Calvin to recruit players, would that not imply that the schools are having more trouble recruiting students? They (at least Hope) do not have such a problem. So perhaps losses from one traditional source of students is offset by an increase in other sources?

[sac]

Hope 101  Alma 83 F

Hope:  Thomas 30, Granger 20, Dykhouse 13, Vree 10
Alma:  Kleiver 22, Williamson 17, Rake 11


Career high 30 for Evan who was pretty terrific tonight.  There was not a lot of great defense played in this one.


Purely my own opinion here, but I think the only game Hope should be really upset with was the first night loss to Alma.  Yes shorthanded but they simply blew a 16 point lead late at home.  Otherwise being where they are with wins over both Albion and Calvin is pretty good for a team that had a losing record a year ago and was pretty fortunate to finish 6th in the MIAA (remember they needed an OT win at Alma just to do that).

[sac]

Albion 86 Kzoo 52
A:  Ebeling 17, Barnes 17    Garland sat out the first half (?)
K:  Smith 12, Horky 9, Hamann 9

Olivet 85 Spring Arbor 83
Martin put back with a few ticks left, SAU turnover on final play

O: Thigpen 21, Martin 18, Johnson 16, Redfield 13, Moore 10