MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

The argument in the past for keeping the Cornerstone/Aquinas tournament was difficulty scheduling D3 opponents, particularly on Thanksgiving weekend. Is there a reason why that doesn't seem to have been an issue this season? And anyone know if the Wittenberg and Hanover games were a home/away swap? Can we hope to see them in Holland next season?

I've forgotten a lot of the reasonings for the HofF tournament continuing past about 2010.  I think you could say difficulty scheduling was a part of it for a few years but by 2014 or 2015 when D3 schools started cooperating way more I don't think that was valid anymore.   Recent tournaments seems to continue due to contracts that just wouldn't go away.  Pretty sure I was told 3 years in a row it was over, and then it wasn't.   

I do think all 4 schools eventually just felt to much division pressure both NCAA and NAIA to discontinue the series.  Even if they won't say it.


I still think you'll see years where 11 D3 non-conference games doesn't work out.  Calvin is opening with Grace Christian this year.  That might be Hope next year.

[Greek Tragedy]

Another possible reason may be the changes in rules regarding "regional opponents". In the past the opponent had to be within a certain mileage. Then it was "anyone in your region, regardless of mileage." Now, basically any team qualifies. I could be wrong and don't know the specifics, but that seems like something that could effect who you schedule.

[KnightSlappy]

Another possible reason may be the changes in rules regarding "regional opponents". In the past the opponent had to be within a certain mileage. Then it was "anyone in your region, regardless of mileage." Now, basically any team qualifies. I could be wrong and don't know the specifics, but that seems like something that could effect who you schedule.

Yes, back when a school like Wheaton was out-of-region for Calvin, and effectively didn't count for at-large consideration, they had little reason (or ability) to make a full d3 schedule. That rule has been changed for a decade(?) or so and all teams really should be playing 24 or (preferably) 25 D3 games.

[sac]

Another possible reason may be the changes in rules regarding "regional opponents". In the past the opponent had to be within a certain mileage. Then it was "anyone in your region, regardless of mileage." Now, basically any team qualifies. I could be wrong and don't know the specifics, but that seems like something that could effect who you schedule.

Yes, back when a school like Wheaton was out-of-region for Calvin, and effectively didn't count for at-large consideration, they had little reason (or ability) to make a full d3 schedule. That rule has been changed for a decade(?) or so and all teams really should be playing 24 or (preferably) 25 D3 games.

Sat down and did the distances from my home to Hope's road opponents last night and chuckled a little when the ferry from Muskegon came up as an option to get to Platteville.

[HOPEful]

Sat down and did the distances from my home to Hope's road opponents last night and chuckled a little when the ferry from Muskegon came up as an option to get to Platteville.

Open air car ferry going across Lake Michigan on December 10th? I don't see the issue.. lol

[GoKnights68]

I know some/all of these have been shared previously, just bringing all of the posted 22-23 schedules together:

Adrian:  https://adrianbulldogs.com/sports/mens-basketball/schedule
Albion:  https://gobrits.com/sports/mens-basketball/schedule
Alma: 
Calvin:  https://www.calvinknights.com/sports/mbkb/2022-23/schedule
Hope:
Kalamazoo: 
Olivet:
Traine:  https://www.trinethunder.com/sports/mbkb/2022-23/schedule

Out of curiosity, what's the main reason that Calvin/Hope don't have one of their match-ups on a Saturday for the second straight season like they always did in previous seasons for a long time?

[Gregory Sager]

Ah, a Lake Michigan ferry discussion on the MIAA board. That takes me back ...

[ziggy]

I know some/all of these have been shared previously, just bringing all of the posted 22-23 schedules together:

Adrian:  https://adrianbulldogs.com/sports/mens-basketball/schedule
Albion:  https://gobrits.com/sports/mens-basketball/schedule
Alma: 
Calvin:  https://www.calvinknights.com/sports/mbkb/2022-23/schedule
Hope:
Kalamazoo: 
Olivet:
Traine:  https://www.trinethunder.com/sports/mbkb/2022-23/schedule

Out of curiosity, what's the main reason that Calvin/Hope don't have one of their match-ups on a Saturday for the second straight season like they always did in previous seasons for a long time?

I think it was sac who pointed out this year's conference schedule is the same as last year's with the locations flipped. That being the case, the only explanation seems to me to be that the league doesn't care to prioritize having at least one of the Hope-Calvin games on a Saturday (and perhaps the institutions haven't lobbied for it).

[sac]

I know some/all of these have been shared previously, just bringing all of the posted 22-23 schedules together:

Adrian:  https://adrianbulldogs.com/sports/mens-basketball/schedule
Albion:  https://gobrits.com/sports/mens-basketball/schedule
Alma: 
Calvin:  https://www.calvinknights.com/sports/mbkb/2022-23/schedule
Hope:
Kalamazoo: 
Olivet:
Traine:  https://www.trinethunder.com/sports/mbkb/2022-23/schedule

Out of curiosity, what's the main reason that Calvin/Hope don't have one of their match-ups on a Saturday for the second straight season like they always did in previous seasons for a long time?

I think it was sac who pointed out this year's conference schedule is the same as last year's with the locations flipped. That being the case, the only explanation seems to me to be that the league doesn't care to prioritize having at least one of the Hope-Calvin games on a Saturday (and perhaps the institutions haven't lobbied for it).

I think scheduling philosophy and concerns have flip flopped for different reasons over the last 6 or 7 years.  The focus now seems to be on getting more Men's women's double header dates.  For a while there were nearly zero. 

It can be a bit of a burden on the schools to always have a home game for staff which you get when men are home, women away and vice versa, so a double header day sort of killls two birds with one stone, provides a little respite for at least one of the schools.  Which I guess is sort of good.  But it really messes with JV schedules and in a league with 8 men, 9 womens teams there really is no template that can be fair and equitable.    So you end up with goofy stuff like 6 road games in your last 8 or Hope's women (the defending Champions) having to play their last 4 league games on the road last year.


Last year was the first time we didn't do a "mirror" schedule, play the same opponents in order in opposite locations.   

There are 5 weeks between Hope v Calvin, but two weeks between Hope v Albion.  Is that good or bad or even a little unfair to someone, maybe.  Idk.  Or is there no concern at all about that.  Idk.

[pointlem]

Another possible reason may be the changes in rules regarding "regional opponents". In the past the opponent had to be within a certain mileage. Then it was "anyone in your region, regardless of mileage." Now, basically any team qualifies. I could be wrong and don't know the specifics, but that seems like something that could effect who you schedule.

Yes, back when a school like Wheaton was out-of-region for Calvin, and effectively didn't count for at-large consideration, they had little reason (or ability) to make a full d3 schedule. That rule has been changed for a decade(?) or so and all teams really should be playing 24 or (preferably) 25 D3 games.

KnightSlappy, excuse my being dense but help me understand the computational logic of DIII opponents doing more for one's post-season opportunities than NAIA opponents. I understand that the latter games don't count . . . and that a victory against a regional DIII opponent does give a boost . . . but doesn't a loss correspondingly diminish one's rating (mindful that half of teams lose)?

[sac]

D3 game 10 and 11 probably gives you more flexibility if you "screw up".  The assumption is always you win those two extra games, but obviously you can also lose them.

Calvin from last season is a pretty decent example.  They went to the final regional rankings with a record of 19-7 a .731 win %, and an SOS of .542

Lets say Calvin plays two more countable D3 games of good quality, wins both they go to the final ranking with 21-7 a .750 win% and an SOS of .542 (this could go up or down say .01 depending on who they played.

Not a huge difference just looking at it, but lets look at the final  regional ranking used for selection, I'm going to cut out spots 5,6,7 with win%, SOS and RRO's.   Calvin was very much considered a bubble team, though I think they got in with a little more comfort than we thought going into selection Sunday.
                                                 W-L          W%       SOS      Rro
5    Case Western Reserve    18-6    .750      .556        6-5
6    Heidelberg                    18-7    .720      .562        5-5
7    Calvin                             19-7    .731      .542        6-5

Now give Calvin two more D3 games and wins, leaving the rankings the same but changing the numbers.

5    Case Western Reserve    18-6    .750      .556        6-5
6    Heidelberg                    18-7    .720      .562        5-5
7    Calvin                             21-7    .750      .542        6-5

Calvin's criteria starts to look comparable and maybe even better than Case Western's given those two games could increase both SOS and RRO's.  That's going from being on the bubble to being comfortably in the field.   There might be a year where those 2 extra D3 games takes you from outside the Pool C bubble to in, they can be potentially huge.

Conversely you could schedule wonky and knock yourself out, but I think it would actually be harder to make your resume worse with 2 more games than better if you're a serious Pool C squad.

Not going to work Hope's full numbers, but a couple more good D3 wins and Hope's numbers could have been closer to Platteville who hosted.  Huge difference in first round tournament opponents and potentially pod.

Just off the top of my head over the last 12 years or so I think the MIAA could have had 2 or 3 other Pool C teams with those 2 extra games maybe.   Certainly closer to the bubble in a lot of years.

[pointlem]

A good analysis, Sac, for a case in which a team is just below the cutoff . . . but "two more D3 games and wins" likely would have made it. But isn't there an alternative scenario in which a team just above the cutoff would have lost ground with two more D3 games and one or more losses? Thus, more D3 games helps . . . assuming you win?

[Greek Tragedy]

I really think there isn't much excuse not to play a full D3 schedule in these parts of the country. If you're thinking about scheduling D3 games and also thinking about possibly losing those games, you're in the wrong business. It's probably better to schedule D3 games with the possibility of losing than schedule NAIA games and getting nothing out of it (in relation to the NCAA tournament) regardless of result. At least if you lose a D3 game, it may help your SOS, results against regionally ranked opponents etc.

[KnightSlappy]

A good analysis, Sac, for a case in which a team is just below the cutoff . . . but "two more D3 games and wins" likely would have made it. But isn't there an alternative scenario in which a team just above the cutoff would have lost ground with two more D3 games and one or more losses? Thus, more D3 games helps . . . assuming you win?

I think yes, you could make your resume worse in theory by playing and losing those two games. But if you're a Pool C hopeful you're probably in the top 5-10% of D3 teams in overall quality so you're probably looking good to win those games. And if they happen to be regionally ranked opponents the win will really, really help you stand out.

As sac pointed out, Calvin could have gotten a lot closer to Case Western Reserve and who knows, maybe if they had two more quality wins and and extra RRO or two, they could have been hosting the sectional weekend. Home court may have been enough to flip the result with Elmhurst in the Sweet 16.

[KnightSlappy]

I really think there isn't much excuse not to play a full D3 schedule in these parts of the country. If you're thinking about scheduling D3 games and also thinking about possibly losing those games, you're in the wrong business. It's probably better to schedule D3 games with the possibility of losing than schedule NAIA games and getting nothing out of it (in relation to the NCAA tournament) regardless of result. At least if you lose a D3 game, it may help your SOS, results against regionally ranked opponents etc.

Yes, exactly this. If you want to be considered for Pool C you have to have a strong resume filled with good teams to have a strong SOS with lots of results (hopefully wins) versus Regionally Ranked Opponents (RRO). You can't be afraid to lose, you need to schedule historically strong programs.