MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

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Great game tonight, definately will stick in my mind as it was the last in my college years.  The feeling of losing is not as bad as that I dont feel the outcome was really in the hands of either team.  If at the end of the night, I walk away saying that Hope was able to pull it out because they made the plays down the stretch then I go home happy with an unexpectedly great season for the Young (not babies anymore) Knights.  Unfortunately, the game was officiated in a way that leaves me to wonder, what if? 

Immink was really impressive with his range and athleticism.  Hope is really losing a lot when he finally runs out of eligibility.  Hope, thanks for the crappy student seats in the wedge shaped corner section.  Nothing like getting pushed away from the action.  Maybe your students should have to sit in the upper corner of the Knollcrest bleachers next year.

Go Tigers!

[devossed]

Other random comments....
Good call by GVW to go a press. I felt it really rattled the Knights.

I agree 100%, in fact it was a critical element in the margin of victory.  Phillips had two steals and makes in the backcourt alone......thats four points.  Those were uncharacteristic mistakes by Calvin.

And just 3 weeks ago, GVW couldn't coach? I guess almost 600 wins doesn't mean much anymore...

[ziggy]

You don't have to be a good coach to make the call to press Calvin.  Anyone who had to ability to watch a marginal amount of tape could see that Calvin had trouble against the press all year long.

[EC Knight]

Forgive me if I do this incorrectly, but I have not tried posting on D3hoops before, only reading.

I am forced to post tonight because I feel terrible for the Knights, especially, the seniors. I was sitting in the third row tonight on the end where the questionable call on Veldhouse was made. Never in the 10 years that I have played and watched basketball have I seen such a weak call made on such an important play. I was shocked and amazed. Normally I would have restrained the comments of a few Calvin fans sitting around me, but I could not bring myself to defend the ref in this case (the short white-haired one...).

I want to make it clear that up until that point I was not angry with the reffing. There were plenty of missed calls and questionable calls. However, the distribution was pretty fair. There was a weak call on Phillips on an inbounds for his fourth. There were countless missed travelling calls, as always. A few rebounding fouls could have been called, a few that were should not have been. But with 19.4 seconds left, a tiny little brush like the one that Veldhouse had against Immink there should not have been called, not in a hundred years. I agree the foul that had Bear bleeding was definitely a foul on Bear. This was not a foul Caleb.

I want to praise the play of Greg Immink (I have loved watching the man play these past few years, he is the heart of that team) and Steven Cramer (really buckled down and got the job done when the Dutchmen needed someone to do so late in the 2nd half). However, I do not think this team will get very far. I actually expect them to lose in the next round. With only Immink and Cramer to provide toughness, and Cramer only on an occasional basis, the Dutchmen will not get far in the tournament. I am less impressed with Vander Heide everytime I see him. He spends more time figuring out how to play dirty then to play hard. He plays decent defense, but does not play within the team concept very well. I am glad he chose Hope over Calvin, even if my pal Koetsier would've liked to have his old running mate around.

I'll wind this post down by saying congrats to the Dutchmen. You won this game because you shot free throws well down the stretch (you're forgiven for that 0-2 stretch Voison...). A win is still a win though. However, Hope fans, do not get your hopes up too high. This team is top-heavy on talent with not enough heart or leadership. Immink can't provide enough to get them to Salem. From here on out it is the best of the best. The teams that Albion should have beaten in to the tournament are all gone. If you can't convincingly beat a team that gives 4 freshmen serious minutes in your own building, you aren't going to get to Salem.

p.s. As much as Reimink annoys me, I would love to have him at Calvin. He plays so hard and selflessly. Maybe an ill-advised three now and then, but you got to love that hustle. GVW might want to split his time with Phillips a little more evenly... just an opinion. GVW is a very good coach, I wouldn't presume to question his ability.

[knights2000]

Caleb made a good decision by not giving the ball to Draayer....KVS was yelling to Caleb to run the offense.

congrats to Hope, good luck the rest of the way

[bgwd41]

Anyone know the status of Kevin Prins?  I know he's a senior and I may be wrong, but doesn't he have one more year of eligibility?  He had an ACL injury for one of his years.  Personally, I'd like to see him come back, but who knows. 

Congrats to Hope.  Represent well. 

As for Calvin fans being on the ref's "from the start", the first foul was in fact, not a foul.  And when you have one ref under the basket and one way out on the three point line in no position to make the call, you don't expect him to make it.  It was a bad call and so was the charge at the end.  BUT, as a wise coach (or maybe my dad) told me once, "too many things happen in a ball game for the refs to decide it."  Calvin had many missed opportunities and did not play their best tonight, it did not all hang on one call.

I also agree that I do not think Hope will go all the way.  Before tonight, I actually thought that they did.  They did not (in my mind) play that poorly and given the talent they have, I thought they should have won by much more.  Calvin played a marginal game and still had a chance to win at the end.

[devossed]

Anyone know the status of Kevin Prins?  I know he's a senior and I may be wrong, but doesn't he have one more year of eligibility?  He had an ACL injury for one of his years.  Personally, I'd like to see him come back, but who knows. 

Congrats to Hope.  Represent well. 

As for Calvin fans being on the ref's "from the start", the first foul was in fact, not a foul.  And when you have one ref under the basket and one way out on the three point line in no position to make the call, you don't expect him to make it.  It was a bad call and so was the charge at the end.  BUT, as a wise coach (or maybe my dad) told me once, "too many things happen in a ball game for the refs to decide it."  Calvin had many missed opportunities and did not play their best tonight, it did not all hang on one call.

I also agree that I do not think Hope will go all the way.  Before tonight, I actually thought that they did.  They did not (in my mind) play that poorly and given the talent they have, I thought they should have won by much more.  Calvin played a marginal game and still had a chance to win at the end.

Hey, don't forget that Calvin had some close ones (including OT) on their way to the banner in 2000. Anything's possible!

[devossed]

Just got back from the game.  Heck of a game called by the refs tonight.  Heck of a game.
How can every drive down the lane by a Hope guard be called a blocking foul on the defender when the offensive player makes initial contact?  And yet, when Veldhouse has contact made on him by the defender, its an offensive foul?  I was sitting right in front of that call.  There is absolutly no way that was an offensive foul.  Ridiculous is a clean word for that call.
I really don't understand how refs can let extreme physical play go on all night long with no fouls calls, and yet, with the game on the line, call something like that.  Its unfortunate that the game was taken out of the player's hands at that point.

I hate complaining about the refs as much as anybody, but they were horrible tonight.  Especially that last charge call with 15 seconds.

You said it well, Arena.  I just wish they would have gotten better refs for this game.  I don't know what their problem was tonight. 

Again, I apologize for my complaining about the refs

No apology needed.  In fact, I'd say in this case its warranted.

I saw a game controled start to finish by three men in striped shirts.It would have been nice to see the players decided it and not the men with whistles.

An questional at best offensive foul in the last 20 seconds?  Come on ref school 101 says no call.

A classic case of the refs controlling the outcome in a tight game, and its just a shame.

The feeling of losing is not as bad as that I dont feel the outcome was really in the hands of either team.  If at the end of the night, I walk away saying that Hope was able to pull it out because they made the plays down the stretch then I go home happy with an unexpectedly great season for the Young (not babies anymore) Knights.  Unfortunately, the game was officiated in a way that leaves me to wonder, what if? 

Never in the 10 years that I have played and watched basketball have I seen such a weak call made on such an important play. I was shocked and amazed. Normally I would have restrained the comments of a few Calvin fans sitting around me, but I could not bring myself to defend the ref in this case (the short white-haired one...).

Wow, not just one or two Knight faithful, but echos of throngs who were displeased with the striped ones! Now, I don't presume to be one of those "stop whining" self-righteous posters whose smugness is affirmed when the outcome of a heated battle turns out in their favor. I will not say that Calvin fans are just spewing "sour grapes." They did have a legitimate beef with a lot of questionable calls that could have gone either way, and a few that were blatantly wrong. (Just as you Hope fans had some beefs, too. I personally thought there were some horribly "guessed" calls against both teams.)

But the reality is—this is a public forum. People are entitled to their opinions, whether right or wrong, open or narrow-minded. I ask that the Hope fans on this board give Calvin fans respect by not minimizing their "sour grapes" diatribes after such a heartbreaking outcome.

And in turn, I ask Calvin fans not to give the Dutch faithful a hard time when they post next weekend about how the refs in Springfield were so horrible that they cost the Dutchies the sectional...People are entitled to their own venting sessions in their own way, and I think that complaining about the refs after their team loses is an art and provides quite a psychological release to help one overcome the inadequate and depressive feelings that ensue. It's a way for us MIAA-ers to launch into spring and fill the void between now and October 15. I think that should not be stifled but embraced and cultivated.

Plus, it still keeps us far ahead of those posters in the dreadful NCAC rooms...

[AndersDY]

What I saw from Veldhouse in that situation a player totally amused by the call.  There are at least a couple ways to react to that. Get up and yell at the official, or walk away like he did.  It was a bush league call. 

All I could read on Veldhouse's face as he stood out there after the call was "oh man, what did I do?" I have a hard time believing if he thought the call was completely bogus that he wouldn't have at least initially thrown a fit. I think anyone would agree that pushing off with your arm needs to be called if it is a hard enough push. Caleb extended his arm, Immink seemed to take a pretty good shot back. From where I saw it, Immink would have needed some crazy good body control to pop back the way he did if he hadn't received a pretty solid blow. Maybe the force wasn't as much as it appeared, but it's a matter of how much contact the ref thinks it takes before it's a foul. I know some would say that standard should be higher that late in the game, but the argument about "the refs shouldn't decide the game" is silly because if they avoid calling a foul that coulda/shoulda been one, then they're just deciding it in the opposite direction. I would love to see another angle on tape, but I saw the play from my angle and immediately was yelling for the call which we got so I had my opinion pretty quickly.

Having watched my other team (tCOW) get bounced by a hotly contested call at the end of their season last year, I've been on the other side of the coin. The ref in last year's Albion game could have swallowed his whistle and not "decided the game," but he saw contact that warranted a foul. We certainly argued vehemently that the contact was not severe enough, but there was something there that was enough, at least for him. Iffy, but it's the judgement they're there to make.  I wasn't happy about it and I'm sure Calvin fans won't soon be happy about this call, but....... and I can't figure out a way to spin this sentence. It's a sucky way to watch an opportunity slip away, but they're put out there to call something when they see it no matter what time in the game. Sure this helped decide the game, but every call decides some part of the game. I'm sure I haven't changed any minds by rambling on the point, but Hope would have gone nuts if Immink was knocked aside and Veldhouse just got a free layup; the refs are going to have to decide to piss off someone in that spot.

The Calvin posters are right that we're not looking bound for the Final Four if we keep finishing games like this. The tighten up and hang on approach failed in The Game pt. II and almost failed tonight. Next Friday we're going to have to figure out how to finish off a team considered stronger than Calvin, likely in their own house. Maybe if we aren't 1-for-a-bunch from the outside in the second half, we won't find ourselves in another hanging on for dear life spot, but the team has to be strong enough to handle that situation when it shows up. Immink and Cramer played great tonight. VanderHeide did seem really inconsistent and I never know what to make of him as a player. Hopefully he's focused in next week. The Hope team that won the MIAA tourney has a shot at running to Salem so they need to figure out a way to maintain that level of play from all 5 guys consistently.

Excellent effort out of Calvin tonight. I won't find my post, but I said that I had a horrible expectation that it would be a one score game and Calvin forced that like they seem to have a way of doing. It sucks that the MIAA was forced to canibilize itself instead of having the chance for both teams to continue further and it sucks that the refs can't be invisible when we want to see the players decide things, but I can't remember any Hope-Calvin game that didn't drive some of us crazy. If we just agreed on stuff like tonight's finish, well that'd just be too tame of a rivalry. 

[dumezrules]

So were your large group of 9 year olds that were taunting the Knight Club the whole night about the scoreboard.

Isn't "SCOREBOARD, SCOREBOARD" a chant often heard at Christian school basketball games in the area from "knights in training" as my Calvin alum friend calls them?  I can't believe a Calvin fan is complaining about THAT chant. 

[arena]

What I saw from Veldhouse in that situation a player totally amused by the call.  There are at least a couple ways to react to that. Get up and yell at the official, or walk away like he did.  It was a bush league call. 

All I could read on Veldhouse's face as he stood out there after the call was "oh man, what did I do?" I have a hard time believing if he thought the call was completely bogus that he wouldn't have at least initially thrown a fit.

You've never been so surprised by a call your reaction was like Veldhouse's?

EC Knight.  Excellent post.

[dumezrules]

Forgive me if I do this incorrectly, but I have not tried posting on D3hoops before, only reading.

I am forced to post tonight because I feel terrible for the Knights, especially, the seniors. I was sitting in the third row tonight on the end where the questionable call on Veldhouse was made. Never in the 10 years that I have played and watched basketball have I seen such a weak call made on such an important play. I was shocked and amazed. Normally I would have restrained the comments of a few Calvin fans sitting around me, but I could not bring myself to defend the ref in this case (the short white-haired one...).

p.s. As much as Reimink annoys me, I would love to have him at Calvin. He plays so hard and selflessly. Maybe an ill-advised three now and then, but you got to love that hustle. GVW might want to split his time with Phillips a little more evenly... just an opinion. GVW is a very good coach, I wouldn't presume to question his ability.

Couple of thoughts on this rant.....officials DONT decide games just like players who miss the last FT or make the last 3 don't...a game is an accumulation of little plays that add up.  Why didnt Veldhouse give up the ball in a 2 on 1 situation?  He will next year!!!  He is a great player. (andd doesn't annoy me)

Why does Reimink annoy you?  Do you know him?  Or is it because he goes to Hope?  His 3-pt shooting percentage would rank him 5th on Calvin's team.....
I thought Phillips was playing great and hustling every bit as much as Reimink.  In my experience, you win with seniors......all other things being equal.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

I will agree that Hope has to play better than they did in the 2nd half last night - if they are going to go any further in this tournament.  The only thing that makes me very confident about that, is that there is only one team that can mess with us like that - Calvin. 

I'm sure you have all seen it on both sides.  In the middle of a Hope/Calvin game you start wondering - who are these guys - they sure don't seem like the team we've seen in every other game this year.  I can only guess at the pressure of playing a game like this - against a team that doesn't really need to scout you or prepare for you.  I suspect that they know each others offense and team personalities as well as their own. 

It's kinda like an argument between spouses - each know the buttons to push to get the other, because of familiarity.

I see Hope coming out of this playing loose and free.  The pressure is pretty much off, now that they got by the Knights.

[knightmoves]

Flying Dutch Fan,

You are wrong my friend. Hope has been picked by most "experts" to win it all this year, or at the very least get to the Final Four. Are you telling me they feel no pressure to finally live up to expectations? And, they have to play Wittenberg most likely on the Tigers home floor! If I were a Hope fan, I would be praying hard for Hope to host, as I then believe the pendulum swings in your favor. If you have to play at Witt, they are as tough on their home court as the Dutch. Also, be prepared for some nasty smear chants and verbal abuse. The negative cheers started by Calvin fans that KVS prperly put an end to will be encouraged by the Wittenburg people based on my experience.

P.S. - Another Hope Calvin classic that I was thrilled to witness last night (except for the ending)! Good luck to Hope, and I wish next season started tomorrow!!!

[Flying Dutch Fan]

kmoves - you missed my point.  Hope v Calvin is as much a psychological issue as a physical one.  The pressure of that does not exist in any other game.  Should Hope lose to Witt, it will be hard on the guys, but they won't have the "We lost our last game to Calvin" to live with.  That was my point.

No doubt there will be pressure - more with each game.  It's just different when it's against Calvin.