MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Bob MacKenzie]

Pat,

By current rules, your point, of course, is correct, but northb raises an interesting angle.  In terms of travel (and perhaps even more in terms of class time), a trip of up to 400 miles to meet TWO teams (in a tourney, or for that matter, a road trip to two nearby schools on say Friday and Saturday nights) is no more than two separate trips of up to 200 miles.  I wonder if anyone has ever raised that angle - it certainly does not seem to violate any d3 philosophical point that I can think of.

That would certainly make the MIAA-CCIW challenge more attractive for Calvin and Carthage, and I'm sure there must be dozens (hundreds?) of similar situations.

I'd like to see the MIAA-CCIW challenge expanded regardless of the NCAA in-region impact.  Nothing against Wheaton and Carthage, but I'd like to see IWU or NorthPark or some of the other fine teams from that conference as well.  And I'd imagine the CCIW folks would like to see Albion or K.   We must be in the final year of the current "agreement".  Is anyone talking about what's in store beyond 2006?

[diehardfan]

It would be awesome if it could be expanded! It could just be one big weekend party of really nice people.

I actually would like the idea of switching Carthage out to replace it with North Park. Calvin would get an In-Region game, and then it would be a fun clique of vaguely philosophically similar schools. And there's no way North Park could possibly stay bad forever, though... heh... it sure would be funny to see the fans from the three other schools try to fit into the crackerbox

What I've always liked about Wheaton's annual game against Calvin is that it's one of those games you're sure you wouldn't mind bringing the kids to. I've always seen it as the theoretical game I'd fly my theoretical family in to see in 10 years or whenever I theoretically settle down.  I definitely get a little squeemish, on the other hand, with some of the schools in my conference. IMHO, North Park students are more classy (and more entertaining) to have at games than the Carthage ones. 

If it's about good basketball, the teams involved are gonna fluctuate much more. Carthage, when this was set up, was completely stellar. Now, they're sorta a little more up in the air. Wheaton too. I think it would be pretty hard to plan this out just based on good basketball given that it's a four year plan.

I don't know though... As much I really, really, REALLY hope Wheaton continues to play classy outstanding programs like Hope and Calvin, I've wondered if based on the NCAA regional rules, if the CCIW shouldn't start a tourney with WIAC, and the MIAA, Calvin/Hope/Albion, do a tourney with the NCAC, Wooster/Witt/Wabash(?).

Just some random thoughts.

[sac]

   We must be in the final year of the current "agreement".  Is anyone talking about what's in store beyond 2006?

Yes......all four teams will be finishing the fourth year of the tournament at Calvin's Fieldhouse.  Hopefully refurbished?

[Mr. Ypsi]

I am astounded by what the Tigers are doing.  Just three years ago, they celebrated winning on the last day of the season to avoid tying the '62 Mets for the record for losses - their 43rd win.  Today, three-and-a-half months earlier, they won their 43rd game, to stand a MLB-best 43-24.

Just hope I haven't jinxed them into a 95-game losing streak!

[Dark Knight]

I never really thought about it before, but games may not count as in-region even if the team doesn't travel at all, right? If Wheaton plays at Calvin, it's not a regional game for Calvin because of the 201 mile distance. If Wheaton and Calvin both play at Hope, it's not a regional game, even though both teams have traveled less than 200 miles. Odd.

I don't know though... As much I really, really, REALLY hope Wheaton continues to play classy outstanding programs like Hope and Calvin, I've wondered if based on the NCAA regional rules, if the CCIW shouldn't start a tourney with WIAC, and the MIAA, Calvin/Hope/Albion, do a tourney with the NCAC, Wooster/Witt/Wabash(?).

One can get carried away with worrying about in-region-hood. In practice it makes very little difference to a team's tournament chances, and fewer in-region games can even be helpful in some circumstances. Despite the NCAA's pressure to make teams drive further for games, I think it makes sense for many teams just to play the traditional rivals and cross-town teams, even if not co-regional or in the NCAA at all. After all, these are students first of all.

[realist]

  I solved this issue pages ago.  The problem with the NCAA formula is they insist on using state borders as some sort of sacred lines.  If they would only acknowledge distance is the issue, not state boundaries (they say this, but then turn right around and negate their own words).   How can any thinking person say it makes more sense for a team from MI to be able to count a game against a team from Miss. being "in region", while a team from nearby IL. is not?  The problem is INFLEXIBLE thinking at the NCAA. as long as they consider state boundaries to be sacred.  Note to the NCAA:  follow your own logic, miles is what counts not state BORDERS!!!!!!
It should be obvious to all that most NCCA administrators went DI instead of getting a real. quality education at a D3 school.

[Gregory Sager]

I actually would like the idea of switching Carthage out to replace it with North Park. Calvin would get an In-Region game, and then it would be a fun clique of vaguely philosophically similar schools. And there's no way North Park could possibly stay bad forever, though... heh... it sure would be funny to see the fans from the three other schools try to fit into the crackerbox

When the idea for the CCIW/MIAA Challenge first came about, this was in fact the quartet of schools that it was intended to showcase: Calvin, Hope, North Park, and Wheaton, for the "vaguely philosophically similar schools" reason to which April alluded.

However, NPU AD and head women's basketball coach Jack Surridge nixed the idea of having the Park participate in the tournament, his reasoning being that it would mean three years of two extra road games and only one year of two extra home games. I think his line of reasoning in that regard is open to dispute; home attendance at NPU women's games is negligible, as it is elsewhere in the CCIW (aside from Millikin, every CCIW school averages well below 400 fans for women's basketball games), so there isn't much of a home court advantage at the crackerbox to speak of.

Wheaton is so close to NPU that any interested Vikings fans can get there very easily, either by car or by public transportation. Hope and Calvin are close enough that it isn't necessary for the NPU basketball teams to stay at hotels, and it would be a great "show the flag" opportunity for the Park inasmuch as there is a substantial population of NPU grads and Covenanters in southwestern Michigan (four large Covenant churches and a retirement community in the greater Grand Rapids area, plus another large church in Muskegon). In fact, the city of Grand Rapids is hosting the Covenant Annual Meeting this week (they just elected NPU's new president on Thursday afternoon).

Rees Johnson, who was at that time the head coach of the NPU men's basketball team, agreed with Surridge's reasoning ... although I suspect that his underlying reasoning had less to do with schedule flexibility (to which he gave lip service) and more to do with the fact that he didn't want two more losses for the Vikings in non-conference play. Rees was all about the cupcakes.

And that's the main reason why in retrospect I wish NPU had been a part of the CCIW/MIAA Challenge. I agreed with the "schedule flexibility" rationale at first, but I've since changed my mind. Calvin and Hope excel in basketball in both genders, and the Vikings (men and women) could use some better competition before CCIW play begins in order to sharpen their skills for the grind of league play. Year after year they suffer from having competed against teams in November and December who are not at the CCIW's level, leaving them unprepared in January (although Surridge has since begun to toughen up the women's schedule a bit).

When NPU bowed out, Carthage was only too glad to step in and become the fourth participating school. When the Challenge is renegotiated next year as the four-year contract expires, if Carthage isn't willing to stay involved I will personally make the case with Surridge and with current NPU men's basketball coach Paul Brenegan to reconsider the Park's original "no" decision.

As for whether or not the crackerbox can fit all of those fans, it's really only two schools' worth of fans that they'd have to accommodate, not three -- Wheaton fans don't travel for basketball, April being a conspicuous exception. And while Calvin and Hope do have healthy-sized cheering sections whenever they play in Chicagoland, it's not as though they swamp whatever venue they happen to be in. Take a look at the attendance figures for the Challenge from two years ago, when it was held in King Arena. NPU's gym, small as it may be, can definitely accommodate those kinds of turnouts.

[diehardfan]

For Scott, because I know he missed them.

[sac]

The picture that never dies.



........and its still funny........to some people.

[diehardfan]

........and its still funny........to some people.

The important people. 

[Civic Minded]

The picture that never dies.



........and its still funny........to some people.

Well, its at least funny when there's nothing else to talk about!     Isn't it basketball season yet??

[matblake]

Well, its at least funny when there's nothing else to talk about!     Isn't it basketball season yet??

Wait, this isn't Condiment Chat?  Shoot, I had a great mustard story to share...

[Mr. Ypsi]

sac,

Yesterday's Free Press had a very nice article on the Homer baseball coach - don't miss it!

[diehardfan]

Well, its at least funny when there's nothing else to talk about!     Isn't it basketball season yet??

Yeah, the girls basketball thread was at least as funny though. 

[hope1]

i wish the seasson started      but not much to watch  yet