MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Gregory Sager]

Um, read the article again. It clearly states that the growth spurt in the Netherlands occurred after WWII, and that for many centuries the average Dutchman was actually shorter in stature than his barbarian ancestors who fought the Roman legions and later served as the Roman Emperor's Batavian Guard.

The emigrants from the Netherlands who form the ancestral gene pool of today's Calvin and Hope folks were a runty lot. As the article makes plain, Americans as a whole have been the tallest people on the planet for decades, until having recently been passed by the Dutch and the Danes.

Heredity has a lot to do with it (racially speaking, people of Nordic stock tend to be taller on average than, say, those of Mediterranean or Alpine stock), but nutrition has even more to do with it. If you eat a high-protein diet three times a day, as opposed to a one-grain diet once a day, you're going to grow up to be a lot taller than people of similar genetic stock. Heck, the current twentysomething generation of Japanese is, on average, almost three inches taller than the WWII generation. It's all about eating more meat, and more food in general.

[northb]

It seems as though there was a great deal of immigration of Dutch folks to West Michigan between the wars, and just after WWII. I do not have a shred of evidence to support this, but a lot of anecdotal examples. 

And Greg you were right, I was kidding, there are actually many other factors that contribute to the Calvin/Hope dominance in the league.

[ziggy]

The fact that the Dutch saw a lot of growth following WWII shows they had the ability to do so.  Because many Dutch immigrants kept relatively pure bloodlines, that genetic predisposition exists, regardless of physical location.  It would not be out of the realm of possibility to say that those that came to the United States prior to WWII were able to begin this growth earlier than those in their homeland because of American prosperity.

[diehardfan]

And the truly funny thing about that article is that when I read it, I also immediately thought of Calvin and Hope basketball. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

Ziggy,

Congratulations, you did nail Greg (one of the few people to ever do so)!

IF it is true that the Dutch maintained 'relatively pure bloodlines', their potential was likely realized earlier in west Michigan than in the homeland.  But nutrition is MUCH more important than bloodlines.  Many texts, for example, note that the average first-generation Chinese-American is OFTEN a full head taller than his-or-her immigrant parents.

But as far as ethnicity, what of the Masai vs. the Dutch?!  They must have only compared certain countries (Greg will nail me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Masai are rather dispersed among the European-drawn countries of Africa).

[Gregory Sager]

Ziggy,

Congratulations, you did nail Greg (one of the few people to ever do so)!

No, he didn't. I was the one who said that people of Nordic stock (which includes the Dutch, for the most part) have the genetic predisposition to tallness that is not found in other racial types that inhabit Europe. It played a role in the relative tallness of Americans (given that the residents of the United States long had a predominant, although now rapidly dwindling, northern European bloodline), and it's played a role in the rise of average height to a mark at or above six feet in areas of post-WWII Europe where Nordic people predominate (the Netherlands, northern Germany, Scandinavia, large parts of the British Isles, etc.). And it's thus natural that a typical Dutch-American or Swedish-American is taller than a typical Portuguese-American or Sicilian-American, especially regarding individuals in whom the respective ethnicities are undiluted. Genetics presumably even plays a role within the Netherlands itself; according to an article by Tony Sheldon in the British Medical Journal, the average male Frisian (who hails from the more Nordic northeastern part of the Netherlands) is 5 cm taller than the average male Limburger (who hails from the country's southernmost and least Nordic province). I strongly doubt that diet, infant and childhood medical care, etc., varies from one part of that small country to another.

Northb's joke, which Scott seemed to take somewhat seriously, was that this dramatic post-WWII rise in height among the Dutch had something to do with Hope and Calvin drawing tall basketball players. Since most shoes in western Michigan are not recent immigrants, the growth spurt of their distant cousins in the land of dikes and polders has had no effect upon Hope or Calvin basketball. It may be indicative of a common racial trend between the two populations (which I pointed out, albeit not very clearly), but it's at best correlative rather than causative. That was my point. As you and I have both said, Chuck, it's nutrition that is the predominant causative agent of average height increase in any given population. And something that happens to one group of people (a growth spurt in the Netherlands) can't be causative with regard to a phenomenon affecting an entirely different group of people (the basketball dominance of Calvin and Hope) an ocean away.

But as far as ethnicity, what of the Masai vs. the Dutch?!  They must have only compared certain countries (Greg will nail me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Masai are rather dispersed among the European-drawn countries of Africa).

The Masai are only found in two African countries, Kenya and Tanzania. While certain pastoral tribes of Nilotic descent in eastern Africa (the Masai, the Dinka, the Tutsi, etc.) are known for being remarkably tall in terms of average height, they aren't anything close to a majority in any eastern African nation. The Dinka, for example, make up only about 4% of Sudan's population. The Masai constitute less than 2% of the population of Kenya, and they are an even smaller percentage of Tanzania's overall demographics. Even before the genocide in Rwanda, the Tutsi were a small minority there. These various cattle-herding tribes of exceptionally tall people are vastly outnumbered by their much shorter (and often urbanized) compatriots.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Dinka (whose ranks include Manute Bol and Luol Deng) are the tallest ethnic group on Earth. Many of you are probably familiar with the story of "the Lost Boys", the young male refugees who fled Sudan's civil war on foot and eventually settled in America. There are a number of them in the Albany Park community immediately south of North Park's campus on Chicago's North Side, and it's pretty common to see Lost Boys on a bus or el train conversing with each other in the Dinka language. They are, to a man, freakishly tall. I've never seen one shorter than 6'5, and some of them are pushing seven feet. They're also impossibly skinny. The old joke about Manute Bol, that he looks like he was giving blood and forgot to say "when", applies to his people as a whole.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Back to basketball - just saw this on the Hope website:

Friday & Saturday, Nov. 24-25 - at Select Bank Classic
To be played at Calvin College. Pairings and times to be announced.

Does anyone know if this is now going to be a rotating tournament (each team takes turn hosting)?

[sac]

Back to basketball - just saw this on the Hope website:

Friday & Saturday, Nov. 24-25 - at Select Bank Classic
To be played at Calvin College. Pairings and times to be announced.

Does anyone know if this is now going to be a rotating tournament (each team takes turn hosting)?

I can't imagine Martina McBride 'The Joy of Christmas' Presented by Weight Watchers  would cause the venue to be change but thats whats scheduled for Nov 25.

If you've atteneded the tournament in recent years though the crowds have been pretty sparse for the Big Arena.......around 2500, even the last year GVSU  played.

Looks like we've lost the uniqueness of this small college tournament.

[northb]

Per Cornerstone website,

Aquinas v. Hope

Cornerstone V. Calvin

[hope1]

i just checked the calvn web site 


friday  nov  24            cornerstone   vs  hope   6.00
                                   calvin  vs aquinas      8.00

sat  25       6.00                     8.00   games 

[northb]

Huh--here is the link

http://www.cornerstone.edu/news/?news_ID=1717

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Huh yourself - here's the Calvin link:

http://www.calvin.edu/sports/mbasket/schedule.htm

[oldknight]

Huh--here is the link

http://www.cornerstone.edu/news/?news_ID=1717

Sorry northb, your link to Cornerstone is dated November 10, 2005--that's last year's tournament. Hope1 and FDF got you on this one.

[northb]

d'oh!

[oldknight]

Huh--here is the link

http://www.cornerstone.edu/news/?news_ID=1717

Sorry northb, your link to Cornerstone is dated November 10, 2005--that's last year's tournament. Hope1 and FDF got you on this one.

d'oh!

I know northb, losing to anyone from Hope--whether on the hardwood or this posterboard--is pretty tough for any Knight to stomach. I feel your pain.