MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

Few thoughts

-------The JV game with Cornerstone was a real barn burner OT game.  I walked in with Hope trailing by 6 and saw the nice finish.  Hope won by 3 I think.


-----Also I believe I spotted former Hope player Pat Stegenga reffing the JV game.  Good for Pat!


------Steve Kratz threw one of the best crosschecks I've ever seen in a basketball game.  Deserved foul.  A little blood but nothing to serious that a plastic mask won't protect.  It was pretty physical for a few minutes.

The PNC coach got a little frustrated with things shortly after and I thought got a bone-headed technical.  All I can figure is he said a magic word, it was not a demonstrative T at all.  I'd also like to know how Hope was allowed to sub there for the technical shots.  All I can figure is somehow they had already been waved into the game.

Although I think he had a good beef towards the end of the game when Hope was mysteriously awarded posession on a jump ball.  I swear and his scorer swears it should have been PNC's ball.


------PNC"s coach was a pretty intense guy, a couple times I thought he would suit up and show his guys how to do it right.  However if you follow the CCIW Chat he gets the Grey Giovanni award for poor sportsmanship.  Shut up when the other team is shooting FT's coach.


----Sometimes I think Kevin Kooiker can be a very good official and has a nice career ahead of him............then he has nights like tonight.

-----Again I'm not one to criticise but how can you see your team playing poorly and not call a time out for an entire 20 minutes of a half.  Unless I missed one?

Oh well, we all need a break.

[AlwaysHope]

PS  I'm still trying to think a last second Hope win that I witnessed..........I wasn't in Wisconsin for Spamans winner.  The few that I can think of were either FT's that led to the other team getting a shot or the "game winning" shot occured with about 30 seconds to go.  It may have actually been at Aquinas many years ago........

Still thinking though........

Well, what about Don Kronemeyer's two free throws after time had expired giving Hope a 104-102 double OT win in 65? A mystery call greater than any ever seen in The Rivalry --even surpassing the phantom call at DeVos last March. Not that I'm bitter about it 41 years later. 

I was a Hope freshman at that game and I still remember freshman Don Kronemeyer (who went to my church and who was playing his first Hope-Calvin game) sinking those two free throws with no time left on the clock.  But what was more amazing was what preceeded it.

With about 15 seconds left, and Calvin leading by two, a Calvin player (I think his name was Kim Campbell)was fouled.  He calmly went to the line, and sank the first of a one and one.  In an era without the 3 point arc, he turned it into a two possession game with one free throw remaining.  There couldn't be any Hope left, right?   But wait...the ref waved off the free throw, because the shooter had one toe on the line; I have never seen that call any other time.  Hope gets the ball, goes down the court and Karl Walters scores two to tie it up.  Calvin gets the ball, and the same Calvin player (with the big toe) shoots and misses.  Kronemeyer gets the rebound, and the shooter fouls Kronemeyer, despite the fact that the clock was running down and Don had no way of making a shot the entire length of the court.  The ref ruled that the foul occurred just before the clock went off, but no time was put back on the clock.

The man I knew as Kroney, shooting a one and one (I think) made the first shot with no one under the basket, and most of the Civic Center rushed the court.  After taking minutes to clear the floor, the refs insisted that Kroney complete the second free throw, which he did.  The crowd rushed the court a second time.  I remember it vividly, because I was on the stage of the Civic Center, right in front of Kroney shooting the free throws.

I actually felt sorry for the Calvin player, who made two huge mental errors (toe on the line and fouling a player that could not shoot) in the last 15 seconds, plus missed a shot.  But I don't remember it being a mystery call.  Campbell, or whoever it was, charged Kronemeyer in a moment of frustration, and was all over him.  He got called for a foul as time expired.

P.S.  Not that I am still ecstatic 41 years later.

[sac]

In 1965 I don't think my parents had met yet......


.......does this mean that when I'm 77 I'll have to hear about Veldhouse's pointy elbows again.

[AlwaysHope]

PS  I'm still trying to think a last second Hope win that I witnessed..........I wasn't in Wisconsin for Spamans winner.  The few that I can think of were either FT's that led to the other team getting a shot or the "game winning" shot occured with about 30 seconds to go.  It may have actually been at Aquinas many years ago........

Still thinking though........

Well, what about Don Kronemeyer's two free throws after time had expired giving Hope a 104-102 double OT win in 65? A mystery call greater than any ever seen in The Rivalry --even surpassing the phantom call at DeVos last March. Not that I'm bitter about it 41 years later. 

I was a Hope freshman at that game and I still remember freshman Don Kronemeyer (who went to my church and who was playing his first Hope-Calvin game) sinking those two free throws with no time left on the clock.  But what was more amazing was what preceeded it.

With about 15 seconds left, and Calvin leading by two, a Calvin player (I think his name was Kim Campbell)was fouled.  He calmly went to the line, and sank the first of a one and one.  In an era without the 3 point arc, he turned it into a two possession game with one free throw remaining.  There couldn't be any Hope left, right?   But wait...the ref waved off the free throw, because the shooter had one toe on the line; I have never seen that call any other time.  Hope gets the ball, goes down the court and Karl Walters scores two to tie it up.  Calvin gets the ball, and the same Calvin player (with the big toe) shoots and misses.  Kronemeyer gets the rebound, and the shooter fouls Kronemeyer, despite the fact that the clock was running down and Don had no way of making a shot the entire length of the court.  The ref ruled that the foul occurred just before the clock went off, but no time was put back on the clock.

The man I knew as Kroney, shooting a one and one (I think) made the first shot with no one under the basket, and most of the Civic Center rushed the court.  After taking minutes to clear the floor, the refs insisted that Kroney complete the second free throw, which he did.  The crowd rushed the court a second time.  I remember it vividly, because I was on the stage of the Civic Center, right in front of Kroney shooting the free throws.

I actually felt sorry for the Calvin player, who made two huge mental errors (toe on the line and fouling a player that could not shoot) in the last 15 seconds, plus missed a shot.  But I don't remember it being a mystery call.  Campbell, or whoever it was, charged Kronemeyer in a moment of frustration, and was all over him.  He got called for a foul as time expired.

P.S.  Not that I am still ecstatic 41 years later.

P.S. II: I forgot to add that win over Calvin, and the next win over Kazoo gave Hope the MIAA Championship!

[AlwaysHope]

In 1965 I don't think my parents had met yet......


.......does this mean that when I'm 77 I'll have to hear about Veldhouse's pointy elbows again.

It never goes away, but the story changes!

41 years from now someone will claim that Immink got arrested by the Holland Police Department after the game for mugging a Calvin guard during the game.

But don't let it bother you...the score never changes!

[oldknight]

Alwayshope has a very good memory. That was a great summary of the action at the end of the 65' game. I had forgotten about the earlier faux pas (yes, it was Kim Campbell) when the big toe got in the way of the game clinching free throw.

The foul call on Campbell at the end of the second OT demonstrates how much the game has changed insofar as how it is officiated. Unless there was a flagrant foul, in today's world no ref would ever whistle a player for a foul where a player was throwing a ball the length of the court at the end of a second overtime--not even Todd Geerlings. 

[almcguirejr]

Few thoughts


------Steve Kratz threw one of the best crosschecks I've ever seen in a basketball game.  Deserved foul.  A little blood but nothing to serious that a plastic mask won't protect.  It was pretty physical for a few minutes.

The PNC coach got a little frustrated with things shortly after and I thought got a bone-headed technical.  All I can figure is he said a magic word, it was not a demonstrative T at all.  I'd also like to know how Hope was allowed to sub there for the technical shots.  All I can figure is somehow they had already been waved into the game.

I sat behind PNC's bench last night.  Kratz's crosscheck happened right in front of Kooiker
who didn't make the call, Dave Joppie the ref under the basket made the call.  The PNC
coach questioned Kooiker about not making the call.  Kooiker turned and said "are you questioning my integrity" and T'd him up.  I think Kooiker is usually a good official but he was thin skinned on this call.  The PNC coach never used profanity during timeouts or directed any at the officials.

One of their fans was also yelling about subbing in DVS to shoot the T.  The PNC coach
turned and told him it was ok to do that. 

Few thoughts


------PNC"s coach was a pretty intense guy, a couple times I thought he would suit up and show his guys how to do it right.  However if you follow the CCIW Chat he gets the Grey Giovanni award for poor sportsmanship.  Shut up when the other team is shooting FT's coach.

In the first couple of minutes last night, PNC didn't block out the shooter on a free throw.
A coach telling his guys to block out the shooter when the shooter has the ball in his hands doesn't get him the label of "poor sportsmanship" in my opinion.  This isn't golf. Hope is going to face a lot tougher free throw situations than 1 man calling to his team "who's got the shooter"?

[/quote]

Few thoughts

-----Again I'm not one to criticise but how can you see your team playing poorly and not call a time out for an entire 20 minutes of a half.  Unless I missed one?

I thought the same thing.  I also wonder why Ryan Klein sat the whole first half.  I think he is a talented kid.  He did some good things in the second half.  GVW seems to run hot and cold with him.  He's on the floor for about the final 8 minutes against Wheaton.  The following Sat. against Goshen he plays 3 minutes. 

[AlwaysHope]

Alwayshope has a very good memory. That was a great summary of the action at the end of the 65' game. I had forgotten about the earlier faux pas (yes, it was Kim Campbell) when the big toe got in the way of the game clinching free throw.

The foul call on Campbell at the end of the second OT demonstrates how much the game has changed insofar as how it is officiated. Unless there was a flagrant foul, in today's world no ref would ever whistle a player for a foul where a player was throwing a ball the length of the court at the end of a second overtime--not even Todd Geerlings. 

Oldknight, I could not agree more about your comment about the changing of the game, especially with one or two seconds left on the clock. 

We are probably dating ourselves, but that was when basketball was a "no contact" sport.  Any contact resulted in a whistle.  When did it change?

[oldknight]

Alwayshope has a very good memory. That was a great summary of the action at the end of the 65' game. I had forgotten about the earlier faux pas (yes, it was Kim Campbell) when the big toe got in the way of the game clinching free throw.

The foul call on Campbell at the end of the second OT demonstrates how much the game has changed insofar as how it is officiated. Unless there was a flagrant foul, in today's world no ref would ever whistle a player for a foul where a player was throwing a ball the length of the court at the end of a second overtime--not even Todd Geerlings. 

Oldknight, I could not agree more about your comment about the changing of the game, especially with one or two seconds left on the clock. 

We are probably dating ourselves, but that was when basketball was a "no contact" sport.  Any contact resulted in a whistle.  When did it change?

I don't know when it all changed but the "no contact" part that is now different than it used to be primarily relates (IMHO) to the contact allowed between the defender and ballhandler/shooter. Let's be honest, back then there was some pretty vicious off the ball stuff that occurred between players. Some of that has actually been cleaned up by the addition of the third ref but they sure do allow a lot of contact with a player who has the ball in his hands. I can remember in the final game at Calvin in 66' when a raging Bill DeHorn got into a scuffle underneath the basket with a couple of Hope players over some of the extracurricular stuff going on during that game. It took several Calvin players to hold him back (Calvin went on to win that game and clinch the MIAA championship in Barney Steen's final game as coach*). And I also know that Honderd (Ralph, not Steve) wasn't exactly a choirboy when it came to the physical part of the game either.

*P.S. Not that I am still ecstatic 40 years later.

[oldknight]

Few thoughts

The PNC coach got a little frustrated with things shortly after and I thought got a bone-headed technical.  All I can figure is he said a magic word, it was not a demonstrative T at all.  I'd also like to know how Hope was allowed to sub there for the technical shots.  All I can figure is somehow they had already been waved into the game.

I sat behind PNC's bench last night.  Kratz's crosscheck happened right in front of Kooiker
who didn't make the call, Dave Joppie the ref under the basket made the call.  The PNC
coach questioned Kooiker about not making the call.  Kooiker turned and said "are you questioning my integrity" and T'd him up.  I think Kooiker is usually a good official but he was thin skinned on this call.  The PNC coach never used profanity during timeouts or directed any at the officials.

I'm surprised to hear Kooiker did that. He may not call a perfect game but he's generally a good ref and I've always thought his oncourt demeanor and selfcontrol have been very good. Either he just had a bad night or the PNC coach has gotten on Kooiker one too many times and was out of rope.

[gohope]

Last night.... Some thoughts:

*  The JV game against the Cornerstone JV game was pretty fun. OT and all! At one time in the 2nd half, Hope was down by 11, but fought back and won.  The best whiner award goes to Jeremy  Voorhees, Holy Cow... he questioned EVERY call. Glad he's not wearing the Blue and Orange. But I digress. Congrats to the Hope JV on revenging an earlier month loss of almost 30 points to the same team.

*  Major props to the Jefferson School 5th Grade Choir and their performance of the National Anthem.  Best singer award goes to the young lady in the 1st row, last person on the right!  Go Emma!

*  The statement made by many after the game was, the Hope Men won in spite of themselves. Maybe their plan of the night was to spot PNC 15 points in the first half.  Well.. the guys did it, but they "played" the 1st half instead of giving them the spot!!!  Thank God for halftime chats.  Another thought was that maybe part of their body knew that they were on semester break, and the other part kept telling them, c'mon, we've got a basketball game to play.

*  In honor of the season, those of us in section 2 were wondering if there was going to be a live nativity.  That's because all of a sudden there was some light from the "East." You know, like a star.  It was REALLY bright.  But alas, it was just SAC in his Michigan Sweatshirt.  The real question was how long did it need to be plugged in before it could be worn?

*  I agree regarding Ryan Klein.  I think that there are just too many quality players and you get engrossed into the game and forget to put the others in. Maybe one of the other navy blazers/khaki pants people could nudge GVW to remind him!  On the other hand, Jesse Reimink hardly saw much time in the 2nd half. We couldn't figure that out.

* YES!  That was Pat Stegeman officiating in the JV game.

*  And... I have a feeling that it was a long bus ride back to LaPorte County. Not only was their coach NOT pleased about the game, he was the first PNC person out of the building and on to the bus.... Oh to be a mouse to hear what he wanted to "share" with the players.

* DotheDew - see you on Christmas Eve?  I hear that Sis will be singing.

[sac]

*  In honor of the season, those of us in section 2 were wondering if there was going to be a live nativity.  That's because all of a sudden there was some light from the "East." You know, like a star.  It was REALLY bright.  But alas, it was just SAC in his Michigan Sweatshirt.  The real question was how long did it need to be plugged in before it could be worn?

So your saying my choice of attire was bright? 8)

[sac]

The newest D3hoops.com poll has Hope at #19, Calvin would be #31.

Interesting thats Hope's 2 losses come to teams ranked #17 Wheaton, and #18 Carthage.  Both close losses.

Calvin's 3 losses come to #17, 18 and 19.

[devossed]

-----Also I believe I spotted former Hope player Pat Stegenga reffing the JV game.  Good for Pat!

Matt Stegenga has a ring and a highlight-reel dunk from his title run with MJ's Bulls.
Pat Stegeman (steg 30) never did dunk in a game.

Although I think he had a good beef towards the end of the game when Hope was mysteriously awarded posession on a jump ball.  I swear and his scorer swears it should have been PNC's ball.

Egregious error on the part of the officials, center-table scorers, etc. PNC's coach was correct--it should have been their ball.

----Sometimes I think Kevin Kooiker can be a very good official and has a nice career ahead of him............then he has nights like tonight.

I'm surprised to hear Kooiker did that. He may not call a perfect game but he's generally a good ref and I've always thought his oncourt demeanor and selfcontrol have been very good. Either he just had a bad night or the PNC coach has gotten on Kooiker one too many times and was out of rope.

You are both right--he's generally one of the best in the league. The off night was really off, because he made some wacky calls against both teams. And to have the thin skinned reaction after Joppie saved his butt puts it over the top...But still no worse than Geerlings. I can't wait for his biasedness to screw something up Jan. 13.

-----Again I'm not one to criticise but how can you see your team playing poorly and not call a time out for an entire 20 minutes of a half.  Unless I missed one?

For once, calmness did not leave GVW and he appeared to know that his boys would weather the storm. Either that, or he wanted to teach them a lesson to come in handy down the road.

[devossed]

*  The JV game against the Cornerstone JV game was pretty fun. OT and all! At one time in the 2nd half, Hope was down by 11, but fought back and won.  The best whiner award goes to Jeremy  Voorhees, Holy Cow... he questioned EVERY call. Glad he's not wearing the Blue and Orange. But I digress. Congrats to the Hope JV on revenging an earlier month loss of almost 30 points to the same team.

Ahh, the Voorhees lineage runs strong with that one...Ever since big bro got cut from Hope it seems the other 2 whined more and more at anything pro-Hope.

And not bad for Coach Elliott's squad to defeat a semi-varsity unit. Cornerstone must've had half a dozen from the varsity roster suit up.