MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[oldknight]

*  And you know that life is good after a Hope/Calvin game when you go to church the next day and the pastor is preaching, and he talks about how God is good, and he gives the example of Hope winning!

So what does the dominie consider the Lord to be when Hope loses by 3 later the same day? Ambivalent?

[HopeConvert]

*  And you know that life is good after a Hope/Calvin game when you go to church the next day and the pastor is preaching, and he talks about how God is good, and he gives the example of Hope winning!

So what does the dominie consider the Lord to be when Hope loses by 3 later the same day? Ambivalent?

It's like the exodus from Egypt - favoring the visitors over the home team.

[EC Knight]

Hey Al,

    I do think the foul cost Calvin more than one point, as what Veltema was trying to do was prevent DVS from getting the layup in. You're told from middle school, if you're going to foul, make sure the guy misses it. So, two free throws after no basket would have resulted in at most 2 points, but two free throws after a made basket meant 4 points, with the possibility of more since Hope got the ball back.

    However, to Veltema's credit I thought he played great other than that one play, and I noticed KVS kept him in after the foul for a little while anyway (pretty big vote of confidence). Yes, it would've been better if he hadn't gotten a flagrant, but lets not knock the kid for doing really well in his first real taste of the rivalry. If you read this Veltema, I'm looking forward to you lighting Hope up for the next few years... bring that all-time record back our way in both wins and points.

   Yes #42 Meckes has been there for awhile, but definitely not 4 years... I remember another guy who wore 42 just two years ago, and Meckes wanting to wear #10 that year, though it would've been ridiculously tight on him. I believe KVS made him go with at least in the 30's or something.

    This was my first year watching the Game from somewhere other than Grand Rapids, and I was definitely pleased to find a great atmosphere in Washington DC. Unfortunately, because of their semester or interim in DC or whatever, Hope had a lot more people in the venue I attended than Calvin did, but it was still fun, all good natured. I had hoped that I would never hear that annoying Dutchmen chant ever again after last year, but I suppose that was too much to ask for :-). Did bring back a lot of good memories though. I was very pleased with the way Calvin played, and I'm really looking forward to the next time these two teams meet. Calvin has turned a corner if they played this well against a top notch team like Hope, I think they're starting to get that back to the wall feeling now... they'll come out fighting in every other game. The freshmen are great, the bigs are playing well, and Veldhouse is still Veldhouse. If it isn't this year, it'll be next year my fellow Calvin posters :-). Here's hoping to this year though.

And another thing... HopeConvert - are you kidding me? Once a traitor, always a traitor :-).

[oldknight]

*  And you know that life is good after a Hope/Calvin game when you go to church the next day and the pastor is preaching, and he talks about how God is good, and he gives the example of Hope winning!

So what does the dominie consider the Lord to be when Hope loses by 3 later the same day? Ambivalent?

It's like the exodus from Egypt - favoring the visitors over the home team.

That's a pretty good comeback--karma worthy actually.

[sac]

At the risk of continueing a discussion of a game beyond its 2 day grace period.

I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned that Hope could have fouled and put Calvin on the line for a 1 for 1 instead of risking a late shot.  For me I was perfectly happy tempting fate (they can't all go in) but man the people around me were screaming for Hope to foul.

Its a strategy I don't think gets used enough in just those kinds of situations, perhaps maybe Calvin had all good FT shooters on the floor?

[AlwaysHope]

At the risk of continueing a discussion of a game beyond its 2 day grace period.

I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned that Hope could have fouled and put Calvin on the line for a 1 for 1 instead of risking a late shot.  For me I was perfectly happy tempting fate (they can't all go in) but man the people around me were screaming for Hope to foul.

Its a strategy I don't think gets used enough in just those kinds of situations, perhaps maybe Calvin had all good FT shooters on the floor?

On the other hand, when you are up by three with 19 seconds left (initially, when Calvin got the ball) on the clock, do you want to stop the clock, and put a good free throw shooter on the line with up to 2 shots.  Or does it make sense for this strategy, after more seconds have gone off the clock?

KVS stated on TV that he had five good shooters in the lineup to shoot the three.  He also elected not to call timeout to set up a play, because he did not want to also give the defense a timeout to set up.

KVS could have gone for two right away, and either hoped for a foul on the shot, or fouled on the inbounds Hope pass to put Hope on the line.

I personally liked the strategy used by both teams, except for Caleb dribbling the ball too long at the end.

Remember the NCAA tournament game at Hope last year?  Hope is up by four with less than 10 seconds, we foul Caleb, and he sinks the first of a one and one.  He gets his own rebound after deliberating missing his second shot, and throws up a desperation shot to tie, but misses.  I don't like the clock to stop when you are ahead!

That's what makes college basketball so exciting - the infinite possibilities followed by the second guessing!

[Flying Dutch Fan]

At the risk of continueing a discussion of a game beyond its 2 day grace period.

I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned that Hope could have fouled and put Calvin on the line for a 1 for 1 instead of risking a late shot.  For me I was perfectly happy tempting fate (they can't all go in) but man the people around me were screaming for Hope to foul.

Its a strategy I don't think gets used enough in just those kinds of situations, perhaps maybe Calvin had all good FT shooters on the floor?

I must admit I had that thought as Caleb was crossing half court.  I immediately dismissed it, thinking I would rather rely on my defense than stop the clock, give them a free point (assuming they make the first FT) and then also allowing 3 of them close to the basket, fighting for a rebound on the second shot (or a chance to make 2 and steal an inbounds pass).  Way too many chances for the ball to bounce their way.

I also like no timeouts in those situations.  If you just go, the kids are more relaxed and can play the game.  I think a TO just heightens the stress.

[HopeConvert]

I still think Calvin may have been well served going for two and fouling instead of running around hoping that could find an open 3. 19 seconds is a lot of time, and Hope wasn't exactly nailing its free throws. Mind you, I couldn't be happier with the way it turned out.

I didn't see the replay of the Veltema foul, but in live time I was quite surprised at the call. Mind you, I was sitting in the upper west side bleachers at the north end and so didn't have a great view. Big call in the game. I thought another big play was Hope preventing Veldhouse from getting a clean shot at the end of the half. Calvin really had Hope on its heels at that point, and hitting a shot like that is a big boost going into the locker room. I thought it gave Hope a boost that they held defensively.

I, too, would be hesitant to foul Calvin in that situation, particularly with a three-point lead. The strategy can be defended, but at this point you don't want to stop the clock, so long as you have a good idea of what you are doing defensively, which Hope did.

[bulldogalum]

Fouling in that situation is a reasonable strategy, but I would much rather see the seconds ticking off the clock unless you've already killed a bit of time, and the ballhandler is a bad free throw shooter.

[dumezrules]

The flagrant foul was dumb, but I wouldn't call it pivotal.  It ended up costing Calvin 1  point.  I think DVS wanted to be the man and make a "7 point play" and shot an ill advised 3.

I think that (correctly) GVW called a play for Derek to shoot a 3.  It was a flare screen play for a 3 that DVS just missed.  (well-run, I might add). In other words, Glen went with the hot hand. 

I thought Hope showed MUCH better ball movement and team play in this game than others previously (Aquinas game comes to mind).   

[KnightSlappy]

I think that Hope showed that they are indeed the best team in the MIAA.  I was really pleased with the effort from Calvin.  Mantel and Veltema showed up on the offensive end and it seemed like they were able to frustrate Hope with their defense.  Many posters were correct, Hope has trouble inside and can be rattled if the 3 ball is contested closely.  Hope seemed to have success with the open midrange shot and Van Solkema/Cramer off-balance runners (I dont think they every missed those).

Interesting statistic:
Calvin's top 3 scorers from the game
Veltema (FR)
Mantel (FR)
Veldhouse (SO)

[flash96]

At the risk of sounding pessimistic and having my karma dramatically altered, I don't  believe we can say that Hope is the best team in the MIAA at this juncture.  The reason being that Adrian is still unbeated in the league.  I don't think that Hope will have a cake walk by any stretch Wednesday night.  I will admit that Adrian escaped Olivet with a victory, but I recall a Hope team that went into Olivet a few years ago and dropped a winable game.

I may be at the game Wednesday, but the weather and work certainly will influence my decision.  Then again I haven't met any of you before.

Go Hope

[bulldogalum]

I'm perfectly happy to give Hope favorite status on Wednesday, and I'm perfectly happy to keep Adrian under the radar.  Of course, if they can pull out a win in two days, that last bit will be out of the question!

[sac]

  I will admit that Adrian escaped Olivet with a victory, but I recall a Hope team that went into Olivet a few years ago and dropped a winable game.

Hope dropped 3 of 4 in Olivet and then lost at Olivet 2 years ago again.  Hope also lost at Adrian in 2004.

Despite the MIAA being a bit down, its still a challenge to win on the road and its the key to bringing home an MIAA Championship.

Look at last year, Hope may have been the most talented and best team but they didn't win at Albion or Calvin and they didn't win the MIAA because Calvin was able to win at Albion.

Its all about protecting your homecourt and being able to steal more than a few on the road.

[AlwaysHope]

I still think Calvin may have been well served going for two and fouling instead of running around hoping that could find an open 3. 19 seconds is a lot of time, and Hope wasn't exactly nailing its free throws. Mind you, I couldn't be happier with the way it turned out.

I didn't see the replay of the Veltema foul, but in live time I was quite surprised at the call. Mind you, I was sitting in the upper west side bleachers at the north end and so didn't have a great view. Big call in the game. I thought another big play was Hope preventing Veldhouse from getting a clean shot at the end of the half. Calvin really had Hope on its heels at that point, and hitting a shot like that is a big boost going into the locker room. I thought it gave Hope a boost that they held defensively.

I, too, would be hesitant to foul Calvin in that situation, particularly with a three-point lead. The strategy can be defended, but at this point you don't want to stop the clock, so long as you have a good idea of what you are doing defensively, which Hope did.

One other factor against Calvin going for two and then fouling is that the foul would have been Calvin's 10th of the half, eliminating the one and one, and putting Hope on the line with two shots.  Hope in turn would have probably had the ball in the hands of either Cramer or DVS, two excellent FT shooters.  

Of course, this strategy assumes that you make the initial two as well as a subsequet two or three, and rely on either a Hope turnover or missed free throw(s).

Pick your poison!  What are the odds of this strategy, vs. having 19 seconds to shoot a three?