MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[bulldogalum]

I prefer a mango salsa with my dead horse, as opposed to the pedestrian condiments of ketchup and mustard.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

I get the joy of braving the weather tonight to see Michigan and Michigan State tangle in an all-important in-region contest that will be pivotal for each teams NCAA hopes.

I'll let you know how it compares to Hope/Calvin. .........at least I know I can get a hotdog at Breslin.

Drive carefully, dress warmly, and make sure you have everything you'll need for that hot dog:

I hereby submit the motion that all discussions of condiments (pictorially aided or not) be grandfathered in as part of our unique makeup and would therefore be exempt from the dreaded beating a dead horse chastisement.  And seconds to the motion?

I am happy to second this well thought out motion.

[Pat Coleman]

...........who starts a basketball game at 9, I mean really

People who are neither prompt nor sincere?

GK offered a rather heartless response. Cor meum tibi offero domine prompte et sincere.

Would that it were still in latin.  Thank goodness for "Spera in Deo."

For what it's worth, if I remember correctly, Brand said that in dividing DIII, they would not have a DIII and a DIV, but rather a DIIIA and DIIIAA, or some similar appellation.

Brand does not make this decision. The schools do.

[Dark Knight]

That's what I thought too until I read the "Around the Nation" segment where four pollsters "thought out loud." Too much of the reasoning (for my taste) was of the form "Team A beat Team B, so team A should be higher in the poll, ..." etc. This kind of reasoning doesn't take into account that a team can have an exceptionally bad or good game, that a team plays in a weak or strong conference, that a game was early in the season or recent, etc. Of course, there were other lines of reasoning as well.

Plenty.

"Road losses to very good teams do little to affect ranking ie. Wash U's lost at NYU by itself affects little change (losing at Brandeis is more significant)"

"In fact, I'm scanning through and nothing jumps out at me in the men's poll that says what you cite above. I'm not reading it very closely so I'm sure you have some reason to say that, but I'd be interested to see what."

I remember the impression I had when reading through the piece, but I don't have time to go through it and analyze the kinds of reasoning in use in each case (though that might be an interesting exercise). However, I can pull out a few examples:

"this is a team with one good win (at Stevens Point) and no bad losses"

"If I vote for Bowdoin as No. 1 today than I feel I like have to put Maine Maritime No. 2"

"I can't take Calvin as the No. 1 team, as they lost to Wheaton and Illinois Wesleyan beat Wheaton"

"I don't know who Hope has beaten all year to give them the Top 10 ranking they got the past few weeks. I still see losses to Wheaton and Carthage."

All of these lines of reasoning, and many more like them, rely too strongly on individual games. They don't take into account when the game was played in the season, or whether the game might have been a fluke, or whether a team plays lots of hard games and is likely to lose one just be cause of difficulty of schedule, etc.

Ideally, pollsters should take into account all the games a team plays. There are some caveats -- winning big against a bad team isn't as informative or reliable as winning a close game against a good team -- but it's also true that depending too much on one or two games, either exceptionally bad ones or exceptionally good ones, could be throwing out the mass of data and relying on the outliers.

[Pat Coleman]

I remember the impression I had when reading through the piece, but I don't have time to go through it and analyze the kinds of reasoning in use in each case (though that might be an interesting exercise). However, I can pull out a few examples:

"this is a team with one good win (at Stevens Point) and no bad losses"

"If I vote for Bowdoin as No. 1 today than I feel I like have to put Maine Maritime No. 2"

(True. But did you even look at their ballot? Bowdoin at 4 and Maine Maritime at 16 -- nowhere near each other, just like in the Top 25.)

"I can't take Calvin as the No. 1 team, as they lost to Wheaton and Illinois Wesleyan beat Wheaton"

(Great point considering IWU was a one-loss team -- like Calvin -- and a No. 1 candidate -- like Calvin.)

"I don't know who Hope has beaten all year to give them the Top 10 ranking they got the past few weeks. I still see losses to Wheaton and Carthage."

All of these lines of reasoning, and many more like them, rely too strongly on individual games. They don't take into account when the game was played in the season, or whether the game might have been a fluke, or whether a team plays lots of hard games and is likely to lose one just be cause of difficulty of schedule, etc.

Meanwhile, you've quoted one pollster three times. Is that really a widespread trend or you not agreeing with one pollster?[/list]

[Gregory Sager]

I was also surprised when I opened the article that nothing geographic was part of the discussion of re-alignment. Every year the basketball tournament is so skewed by the limitations of travel vs. budgets (first round byes going to mediocre teams because they happen to be located a plane flight from any other D3 teams) and now there may be two separate tournaments which are still national but are funded by two smaller divisions?

From everything I've read, part of the reason why there's talk of a split is because some schools would rather dispense with the national tournaments altogether. They'd rather simply play whatever postseason contests they can agree upon on a regional basis. So, in other words, even if D3 splits into D3 and D4, there will still be only one national tournament. D4 wouldn't have one.

Of course, the "traditionalists" (as the NYT article calls them, even though this seems to be the pro-change party) may have altered their stance on the idea of national tournaments. But in earlier conversations, the whole idea of national tournaments seemed to be a sticking point with them.

[Pat Coleman]

Actually, I re-read and it's one pollster twice. You seem to have a problem with the Hope comment -- do you have an answer to that? I would like to know what the signature win is for Hope. The losses are telling but if there were a signature win it might make things different.

[sac]

I don't know that "NCAA hopes" is the right term though. I don't follow MSU's chances very well, but in UM's case, they're chances already look like NCAA prayers. Does Amaker have another NIT title in him?

Michigan should decline any invite to the NIT and consider applying for the ECAC tournament, they'd be underdogs but it would be less embarassing for them.

I don't think I've ever seen a more pointless offense.

Drove home on something that resembled a road, it was white and it had tire tracks so I think I got it right.   I'm starting to question my sanity when it comes to the risks I'll take just to see a basketball game, at least I think that was a basketball game.

[GoKnights68]

I don't know that "NCAA hopes" is the right term though. I don't follow MSU's chances very well, but in UM's case, they're chances already look like NCAA prayers. Does Amaker have another NIT title in him?

Michigan should decline any invite to the NIT and consider applying for the ECAC tournament, they'd be underdogs but it would be less embarassing for them.

I don't think I've ever seen a more pointless offense.

Drove home on something that resembled a road, it was white and it had tire tracks so I think I got it right.   I'm starting to question my sanity when it comes to the risks I'll take just to see a basketball game, at least I think that was a basketball game.

I hope Bill Martin can come to his senses and terminate Tommy.

[MIdoubleA]

I don't know that "NCAA hopes" is the right term though. I don't follow MSU's chances very well, but in UM's case, they're chances already look like NCAA prayers. Does Amaker have another NIT title in him?

Michigan should decline any invite to the NIT and consider applying for the ECAC tournament, they'd be underdogs but it would be less embarassing for them.

I don't think I've ever seen a more pointless offense.

Drove home on something that resembled a road, it was white and it had tire tracks so I think I got it right.   I'm starting to question my sanity when it comes to the risks I'll take just to see a basketball game, at least I think that was a basketball game.

I hope Bill Martin can come to his senses and terminate Tommy.

Poor guy, you gotta give him credit though. He took on a team that was destined to fail, with all of the NCAA sanctions on them. Imagine recruiting players and telling them they won't be able to go to the tourney for a few years. Try building a program on that

[GoKnights68]

I don't know that "NCAA hopes" is the right term though. I don't follow MSU's chances very well, but in UM's case, they're chances already look like NCAA prayers. Does Amaker have another NIT title in him?

Michigan should decline any invite to the NIT and consider applying for the ECAC tournament, they'd be underdogs but it would be less embarassing for them.

I don't think I've ever seen a more pointless offense.

Drove home on something that resembled a road, it was white and it had tire tracks so I think I got it right.   I'm starting to question my sanity when it comes to the risks I'll take just to see a basketball game, at least I think that was a basketball game.

I hope Bill Martin can come to his senses and terminate Tommy.

Poor guy, you gotta give him credit though. He took on a team that was destined to fail, with all of the NCAA sanctions on them. Imagine recruiting players and telling them they won't be able to go to the tourney for a few years. Try building a program on that

I credit him for making the program clean again and bringing it somewhat out of the gutter, but there is still no excuses for not making the tournament yet.  To have Daniel Horton as your PG all four years and not make the tournament once is pretty sad.  Last year was unacceptable with losing 7 out of their last 9 games and missing the tourney because of that.  He did his job in building the program back up, now it's time to for a coach who can just win. There's no denying he's a great guy though.   Alright, sorry for the off-topic post.;

[dumezrules]

Actually, I re-read and it's one pollster twice. You seem to have a problem with the Hope comment -- do you have an answer to that? I would like to know what the signature win is for Hope. The losses are telling but if there were a signature win it might make things different.

It's hard to have a signature win when you dont play any signature teams.....Schools have no control over how good the teams are they are playing, they just have to play the schedule they have......Hope lost to Carthage and Wheaton (both close) early in the year on the road, and to their biggest rival....(would that be a signature loss???) Losses are always telling........why is it that wins are not as telling?  (oops, forgot, you need SIGNATURE wins!!!)!, just beating the H-E-double hockeystick out of the teams you should beat are not as telling?

As Myles Brand's nemesis (and, evidently a Hope College student's namesake) once said.... "In any season, in 1/4 of your games your team will be so bad you cant believe it, in 1/4 of your games, your team will be so good you cant believe it.....it is the other 1/2 of your games that says who you really are."  Throw out the 6 biggest wins and the 6 biggest losses(or wins that seem like losses)  for each school and see what you have left....  I know this isn't truly the way you can judge teams but you will get a better indication. This is also why I think Calvin (although I know they wont be) should be considered for Pool C.......Throw out their preseason, look at who they are NOW!

[HopeConvert]

I don't know that "NCAA hopes" is the right term though. I don't follow MSU's chances very well, but in UM's case, they're chances already look like NCAA prayers. Does Amaker have another NIT title in him?

Michigan should decline any invite to the NIT and consider applying for the ECAC tournament, they'd be underdogs but it would be less embarassing for them.

I don't think I've ever seen a more pointless offense.

Drove home on something that resembled a road, it was white and it had tire tracks so I think I got it right.   I'm starting to question my sanity when it comes to the risks I'll take just to see a basketball game, at least I think that was a basketball game.

I hope Bill Martin can come to his senses and terminate Tommy.

Poor guy, you gotta give him credit though. He took on a team that was destined to fail, with all of the NCAA sanctions on them. Imagine recruiting players and telling them they won't be able to go to the tourney for a few years. Try building a program on that

I credit him for making the program clean again and bringing it somewhat out of the gutter, but there is still no excuses for not making the tournament yet.  To have Daniel Horton as your PG all four years and not make the tournament once is pretty sad.  Last year was unacceptable with losing 7 out of their last 9 games and missing the tourney because of that.  He did his job in building the program back up, now it's time to for a coach who can just win. There's no denying he's a great guy though.   Alright, sorry for the off-topic post.;

So what's a more egregious violation of board rules: discussing women's DIII/MIAA basketball in the men's forum, or discussing DI/Big Ten basketball in a DIII/MIAA forum? It seems to me the former only violates one category, while the latter two. Gotta make distinctions.

(For the record, it doesn't matter to me what is discussed - within reason.)

[Stinger]

That was definitely an intersting read. I wonder where that might lead Kalamazoo. It has continued to de-emphasize athletics since 1997 when Jimmy Jones came in as president.  I am still holding out that Dr. Wilson-Oleyaran will see the light. 

HUGE game for the Hornets.  As the guy who runs the 50/50 raffle at the Breslin would say, "Let's Get the W!!!"



 

[almcguirejr]

Actually, I re-read and it's one pollster twice. You seem to have a problem with the Hope comment -- do you have an answer to that? I would like to know what the signature win is for Hope. The losses are telling but if there were a signature win it might make things different.

It's hard to have a signature win when you dont play any signature teams.....Schools have no control over how good the teams are they are playing, they just have to play the schedule they have......Hope lost to Carthage and Wheaton (both close) early in the year on the road, and to their biggest rival....(would that be a signature loss???) Losses are always telling........why is it that wins are not as telling?  (oops, forgot, you need SIGNATURE wins!!!)!, just beating the H-E-double hockeystick out of the teams you should beat are not as telling?

Hope played a weak non conference schedule this year.  They have control over that.  They should have invited some stronger teams to their Sentinel and DeVette tournaments.  KVS scheduled a very difficult non-conference schedule with a lot less experience coming back than Hope did.  I think GVW should have found 1 or 2 more top 25 caliber DIII teams to play prior to the league season.  I think he would know a lot more about his team than he does right now

This is also why I think Calvin (although I know they wont be) should be considered for Pool C.......Throw out their preseason, look at who they are NOW!

NOW they are a 9-3 team in a weak league.  I think Pool C does throw out their non conference schedule except for the Select Bank loss to Hope.  They are not a Pool C contender because of their losses to Adrian and TSU.  Calvin played themselves into the corner they find themselves in.  They can also play themselves into the NCAA tournament by winning 3 games next week.