MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

I'd be surprised if either team cared if this game was in region or not. And obviously the only reason we care right now is because we lost. If we won, we'd all be happy to have one more in the W column.

Everyone should care, if only because I don't think this decision is within the spirit of the 200-mile rule.  Its a joke actually.  No Hope or Carthage team will ever make a trip to the others school in under 200 miles.....ever.  If Hope gets in the tournament it will affect seedings of every team in their bracket, and potentially affect hosting determinations.

This is just such an amazingly bad decision and I'd think the same way if Hope won that game.  The Hope women get an an extra in-region win, so as a school its a wash.............but its just not what the rule was meant to do.  You can't take a ferry that doesn't exist in winter, just like I can't drive my car over an imaginary bridge to Milwaukee because I want the trip to only be an hour and not five.

If we're going to interpret the rule this way than shouldn't all 200 mile games be "as the crow flies"?

[Mr. Ypsi]

"As the crow flies" the trip could be done in 50-60 miles!  Their mileage figure is probably technically correct, but would require taking the Skyway to Lakeshore Drive, then Sheridan Road up to Kenosha (i.e., surface streets through downtown Chicago and all the northern suburbs) - no sane person (and certainly no bus driver) is going that route.  (This route would take a minimum of 6 hours.)  Real people would take the Tri-State, which would come out at least 225 miles, but save at least two hours.  I would assume that the rationale for the rule is saving time away from campus; this computation is in direct contradiction to the intention of the rule.

Once again the letter of the law trashes the spirit of the law.

[KnightSlappy]

Microsoft Live search list Calvin to Benedictine (IL) as 200.6 miles in "shortest time" mode and 196.4 in "shortest distance" mode.  Maybe Calvin should get an extra regional win for that game.

[HopeConvert]

I spent some time on Calvin's campus today. Have any Calvin posters noticed that "The Cheese" is painted orange on one side and blue on the other? I got a nice chuckle out of that.

[NW Hope Fan]

No photo??? Not even w/ your phone?

[Mr. Ypsi]

Microsoft Live search list Calvin to Benedictine (IL) as 200.6 miles in "shortest time" mode and 196.4 in "shortest distance" mode.  Maybe Calvin should get an extra regional win for that game.

Since the 'official' setting is 'shortest distance', quite possibly that IS an in-region game!  While it is almost certainly irrelevant for this year, you might want to have that 'officially' checked for future reference.

[sac]

Would another regional win last year made it so we hosted instead of going to Witt?

Maybe, maybe not...........using the magic ferry theory Lakeland would probably have come close to being in-region.  Two more wins probably would have made a difference.

I'm not sure how they get 199 miles to Kenosha using a 66 mile ferry ride, its 35 miles to Muskegon and 30 miles from Milwaukee to Kenosha that makes 131 miles roughly.........not even close to the 199 Pats quoting

[Mr. Ypsi]

sac,

See my post above - the 199 is probably technically correct (by land, not by 'sea'), but extremely misleading.

[sac]

Microsoft Live search list Calvin to Benedictine (IL) as 200.6 miles in "shortest time" mode and 196.4 in "shortest distance" mode.  Maybe Calvin should get an extra regional win for that game.

Since the 'official' setting is 'shortest distance', quite possibly that IS an in-region game!  While it is almost certainly irrelevant for this year, you might want to have that 'officially' checked for future reference.

Its not irrelevant, it could directly impact what "level" Calvin results register at since the Knights are close to the .667 threshold in QOWI.  Calvin is currently 9-6 in-region, Benedictine could be in-region as could Concordia (haven't checked) and with 1 game and 2 potential MIAA games Calvin could get over the .667 threshold.   This would affect  Hope and Wooster QOWI's.  Hardly irrelevent since decisions about these teams D3 tournament futures could be made using QOWI.

[sac]

199 miles........are we walking the beach around now?

[David Collinge]

Microsoft MapPoint (www.mappoint.msn.com) will be used to confirm distances from campus to campus using the shortest distance option.

I did this for Holland, MI to Kenosha, WI (not using addresses, since I don't know them, it's too late, I'm too lazy, take your choice) and got 65.6 miles which includes a ferry ride from Muskegon to Milwaukee measuring 0 (statute) miles.  This link may take you to the result, or it may not, I'm not sure.

My guess is that anything under 200 miles is 199 miles to the NCAA.  And why not.

Grand Rapids, MI to Lisle, IL does not involve any ocean-going vessels and maps out at 193.9 miles: Result.  Perhaps when the correct addresses are used, it goes over the 200 mile threshhold.  Somebody might want to check this. 

I think the NCAA has been trapped by the specificity of its own rule.  It says quite clearly in the Handbook how it is going to calculate the 200-mile rule.  But then one pairing gives an absurd result.  So what do you do?  Do you make an exception?  But then someone else asks for an exception for Calvin/Wheaton, and another asks for this exception and another for that exception, and you never get any real work done (and we know that "real work" goes on all the time in Indianapolis.)  The Handbook doesn't specify that no ferries will be used, and doesn't provide for exceptions in the event of absurd results.  So they have to rigidly stick with the rule, which screws Hope's men and Carthage's women this year, and come up with a better solution for next year.  At least that's what I think is going on behind the scenes.

The next time one of you needs driving directions, I'd recommend not relying on mappoint.msn.com, unless you have a car that has been tricked out by Q Branch for undersea driving. 

[diehardfan]

I think the NCAA has been trapped by the specificity of its own rule... 

This is what I think too, and have been thinking as everyone has made their argument. I actually am glad that they are counting this game as in-region. Absurd or not, they can't start making exceptions based on logic. This sorta thing has to be objective (ie. by the book) to be fair.

[Mr. Ypsi]

David,

Interesting that you selected Calvin to Benedictine (Grand Rapids to Lisle) and got 193.9 miles.  Benedictine and Wheaton are at most five miles apart, and Calvin and Wheaton have been declared not in region.  (I think it was something like 201.2 miles - a major brouhaha a year or so ago.  At the time I guaranteed that I could find a route that would be under 200 miles, even if it involved local roads, dirt roads, etc. - shortest is shortest!)

All rules are of necessity arbitrary, but this one is even more arbitrary than most, since it violates the presumed rationale for having the rule: minimal time away from campus/studying.  The ONLY way that Hope and Carthage can possibly come in under 200 miles is by surface streets through Chicago and its south and north suburbs, thus adding 2-3 hours (each way) to the trip if anyone were actually insane enough to do it.  In the time it would take to go from Holland to Kenosha in under 200 miles, you could go 400 miles in many parts of the country.

That's why the last time this topic came up I advocated using the time estimates on the mapping software rather than the mileage.  It too is arbitrary and often inaccurate (sound familiar?!), but it is a knowable standard available to all in scheduling.  And it has the rather compelling advantage of fitting in with the rationale for the rule in the first place!  Scrap the 200-mile rule (or else forget the mapping and make it 150 miles as the crow flies) and go to 4 or 5  (or whatever) hours.

And DON'T keep changing the rules in mid-season - Hope-Carthage was non-region last year and was presumably scheduled that way this year!

[Pat Coleman]

Microsoft Live search list Calvin to Benedictine (IL) as 200.6 miles in "shortest time" mode and 196.4 in "shortest distance" mode.  Maybe Calvin should get an extra regional win for that game.

I get 197.4 on MSN Mappoint, which was allegedly the official determining map software. I'll mark it regional. Good catch.

[Mr. Ypsi]

April,

"by the book" may be fair, but what if it violates the reason for having the rule in the first place?  If they are to follow the (presumed) rationale for the rule, the setting should be 'fastest route', not 'shortest route'.  I say either scrap the in-region rule entirely and (gasp!) let college administrators decide what is academically best for their students, or switch to the 'time' estimates on the software (just as arbitrary yet accessible to schedulers).

With the overlay of administrative regions (which I applaud), the rationale for in-region games has already been made a mockery.  Wheaton can play 'in-region' in Hawaii, but not in Grand Rapids.  Huh