MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[diehardfan]

All rules are of necessity arbitrary, but this one is even more arbitrary than most, since it violates the presumed rationale for having the rule: minimal time away from campus/studying. 

Well, yes, but let's face it. The ASC drives more than 200 miles for in conference games. Illinois and Washington state are in region no matter when the game is played! If they had been serious about the rule, a better one would have been something like this:

All teams within 250 (or possibly 300 miles) are in region, all games that are played when the players don't miss class are in region (long weekends, breaks, even just a weekend game... or how about this one... a home game with a team would have the game count as out of region for them! ). When Williams came out to the SCIAC this year, I guarantee the SCIAC guys didn't have to miss class for the game... why should that count as out of region?

Just my two cents. They aren't that serious about that missing class rule... how much class do DI players actually go to? Although their new regional definitions are a good step towards making the criteria national, they don't make much sense on their own. But just because they don't make sense doesn't mean that they don't need to stick to the rules to be fair. If that makes any sense... 

I agree with you about the fastest route thing, incidentally, but only in theory. I mean, then what? The fastest route for some teams may lead through a major city, and rush hour traffic jams? What if the shorter route ends up being actually faster cause it avoids highways and traffic? That doesn't work either. There's too much variability involved.

[Pat Coleman]

"by the book" may be fair, but what if it violates the reason for having the rule in the first place? 

Ypsi:

The reason for the rule is to make sure D-III schools in the team's local area are regional. Nothing more, nothing less.

[HopeConvert]

No photo??? Not even w/ your phone?

I'm afraid I'm not that high-tech.

[HopeConvert]

David,

Interesting that you selected Calvin to Benedictine (Grand Rapids to Lisle) and got 193.9 miles.  Benedictine and Wheaton are at most five miles apart, and Calvin and Wheaton have been declared not in region.  (I think it was something like 201.2 miles - a major brouhaha a year or so ago.  At the time I guaranteed that I could find a route that would be under 200 miles, even if it involved local roads, dirt roads, etc. - shortest is shortest!)

All rules are of necessity arbitrary, but this one is even more arbitrary than most, since it violates the presumed rationale for having the rule: minimal time away from campus/studying.  The ONLY way that Hope and Carthage can possibly come in under 200 miles is by surface streets through Chicago and its south and north suburbs, thus adding 2-3 hours (each way) to the trip if anyone were actually insane enough to do it.  In the time it would take to go from Holland to Kenosha in under 200 miles, you could go 400 miles in many parts of the country.

That's why the last time this topic came up I advocated using the time estimates on the mapping software rather than the mileage.  It too is arbitrary and often inaccurate (sound familiar?!), but it is a knowable standard available to all in scheduling.  And it has the rather compelling advantage of fitting in with the rationale for the rule in the first place!  Scrap the 200-mile rule (or else forget the mapping and make it 150 miles as the crow flies) and go to 4 or 5  (or whatever) hours.

And DON'T keep changing the rules in mid-season - Hope-Carthage was non-region last year and was presumably scheduled that way this year!

All rules may be arbitrary, but that doesn't mean they're irrational. Whatever your reasons are, they have to be upheld consistently otherwise you are going to have chaos on your hands. One of the things I fear about the DIII rules is that they are so complex as to virtually guarantee you'll have debates like this.

If we use time estimates rather than distance estimates, would we be using Civic-Minded as the imagined driver, or someone else? Because it seems like that would make a difference.

[goodknight]

I spent some time on Calvin's campus today. Have any Calvin posters noticed that "The Cheese" is painted orange on one side and blue on the other? I got a nice chuckle out of that.

Doubtless the artist is a Wheaton alum who got her MFA at Illinois and roots for Chicago Bears.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

David,

Interesting that you selected Calvin to Benedictine (Grand Rapids to Lisle) and got 193.9 miles.  Benedictine and Wheaton are at most five miles apart, and Calvin and Wheaton have been declared not in region.  (I think it was something like 201.2 miles - a major brouhaha a year or so ago.  At the time I guaranteed that I could find a route that would be under 200 miles, even if it involved local roads, dirt roads, etc. - shortest is shortest!)

All rules are of necessity arbitrary, but this one is even more arbitrary than most, since it violates the presumed rationale for having the rule: minimal time away from campus/studying.  The ONLY way that Hope and Carthage can possibly come in under 200 miles is by surface streets through Chicago and its south and north suburbs, thus adding 2-3 hours (each way) to the trip if anyone were actually insane enough to do it.  In the time it would take to go from Holland to Kenosha in under 200 miles, you could go 400 miles in many parts of the country.

That's why the last time this topic came up I advocated using the time estimates on the mapping software rather than the mileage.  It too is arbitrary and often inaccurate (sound familiar?!), but it is a knowable standard available to all in scheduling.  And it has the rather compelling advantage of fitting in with the rationale for the rule in the first place!  Scrap the 200-mile rule (or else forget the mapping and make it 150 miles as the crow flies) and go to 4 or 5  (or whatever) hours.

And DON'T keep changing the rules in mid-season - Hope-Carthage was non-region last year and was presumably scheduled that way this year!

So my question is, did they actually change the rule to start using ferry's, or are they now considering the backroads & city streets through Chicago?  IF it's the latter, then why was this not in region last year - it's not like those streets just popped up in the last 12 months. 

For me the ire comes from them changing the rules (or the application of said rules) in the middle of the game.  If two teams are out of region one year, then they are forever out of region, with two excceptions.  A new road is built reducing the distance (not the case here) or the rules change (I believe this is also not the case here).

[HopeConvert]

David,

Interesting that you selected Calvin to Benedictine (Grand Rapids to Lisle) and got 193.9 miles.  Benedictine and Wheaton are at most five miles apart, and Calvin and Wheaton have been declared not in region.  (I think it was something like 201.2 miles - a major brouhaha a year or so ago.  At the time I guaranteed that I could find a route that would be under 200 miles, even if it involved local roads, dirt roads, etc. - shortest is shortest!)

All rules are of necessity arbitrary, but this one is even more arbitrary than most, since it violates the presumed rationale for having the rule: minimal time away from campus/studying.  The ONLY way that Hope and Carthage can possibly come in under 200 miles is by surface streets through Chicago and its south and north suburbs, thus adding 2-3 hours (each way) to the trip if anyone were actually insane enough to do it.  In the time it would take to go from Holland to Kenosha in under 200 miles, you could go 400 miles in many parts of the country.

That's why the last time this topic came up I advocated using the time estimates on the mapping software rather than the mileage.  It too is arbitrary and often inaccurate (sound familiar?!), but it is a knowable standard available to all in scheduling.  And it has the rather compelling advantage of fitting in with the rationale for the rule in the first place!  Scrap the 200-mile rule (or else forget the mapping and make it 150 miles as the crow flies) and go to 4 or 5  (or whatever) hours.

And DON'T keep changing the rules in mid-season - Hope-Carthage was non-region last year and was presumably scheduled that way this year!

So my question is, did they actually change the rule to start using ferry's, or are they now considering the backroads & city streets through Chicago?  IF it's the latter, then why was this not in region last year - it's not like those streets just popped up in the last 12 months. 

For me the ire comes from them changing the rules (or the application of said rules) in the middle of the game.  If two teams are out of region one year, then they are forever out of region, with two excceptions.  A new road is built reducing the distance (not the case here) or the rules change (I believe this is also not the case here).

And - if you're going to change it to an in-region game, you have to notify the teams in advance, not after the fact. Then it really is arbitrary (contingent upon someone's apparent whim).

[David Collinge]

So my question is, did they actually change the rule to start using ferry's, or are they now considering the backroads & city streets through Chicago?  IF it's the latter, then why was this not in region last year - it's not like those streets just popped up in the last 12 months. 

Neither; they changed the program used to determine distance.  This year it's mappoint; last year IIRC it was Streets & Trips.

[oldknight]

All rules may be arbitrary, but that doesn't mean they're irrational. Whatever your reasons are, they have to be upheld consistently otherwise you are going to have chaos on your hands. One of the things I fear about the DIII rules is that they are so complex as to virtually guarantee you'll have debates like this.

HC's above comment is a valid summary of the argument in this ongoing debate over the D3 in-region rule. The arbitrariness of the current rule is--by itself--not enough for me to get excessively irritated. As I understand the rule's purpose it is intended to encourage (and reward) schools that schedule games against D3 opponents who can be reached within a reasonable time in order to limit an athlete's time away from campus and studies. The fact of the matter is that no matter how you structure a system designed to implement the purpose of a rule there will always be an element of unfairness when you start comparing individual cirmcumstances. That fact is always true about rulemaking. I haven't seen any suggestion yet that ameliorates the current rule's propensity to work an unfairness in a given situation. Holland may be less than a hundred miles--as the crow flys--from Kenosha but does Hope's administration want their student-athletes spending several hours on a ship crossing Lake Michigan in winter weather just to fit within the NCAA's 200 mile rule?

The determination of distance of the Hope-Carthage matchup may be arbitrary but is not necessarily irrational or unfair. However, if--as some on this board have claimed--the NCAA changed the methodology for determining distance after the school year began, then I would consider that to both arbitrary and unfair and that would be an appropriate basis to object to the NCAA's methods. But the NCAA wouldn't ever be unfair to its member schools now would it?

[HopeConvert]

HC's above comment is a valid summary of the argument in this ongoing debate over the D3 in-region rule. The arbitrariness of the current rule is--by itself--not enough for me to get excessively irritated. As I understand the rule's purpose it is intended to encourage (and reward) schools that schedule games against D3 opponents who can be reached within a reasonable time in order to limit an athlete's time away from campus and studies. The fact of the matter is that no matter how you structure a system designed to implement the purpose of a rule there will always be an element of unfairness when you start comparing individual cirmcumstances. That fact is always true about rulemaking. I haven't seen any suggestion yet that ameliorates the current rule's propensity to work an unfairness in a given situation. Holland may be less than a hundred miles--as the crow flys--from Kenosha but does Hope's administration want their student-athletes spending several hours on a ship crossing Lake Michigan in winter weather just to fit within the NCAA's 200 mile rule?

The determination of distance of the Hope-Carthage matchup may be arbitrary but is not necessarily irrational or unfair. However, if--as some on this board have claimed--the NCAA changed the methodology for determining distance after the school year began, then I would consider that to both arbitrary and unfair and that would be an appropriate basis to object to the NCAA's methods. But the NCAA wouldn't ever be unfair to its member schools now would it?

All rules need to be prudently applied to given circumstances, which requires sound human judgment so as to insure the result is just (what Aristotle referred to as phronesis). It is the job of administrators to carefully consider the circumstances and the rule in question. The problem here is that the persons in question at the NCAA (apparently) simply went to mappoint, typed in the addresses, clicked on the shortest route, and left it at that, not paying attention to the fact that there was a lake in the way, or that the difference between the shortest route and the quickest route is five hours of travel time. (According to mappoint the quickest route is still 211 miles.) In that case, choosing the shortest route is a clear violation of the principle in question, namely, not taking students away from school for too long. The problem is not with the rule, but with the person who made the determination. Such people can and ought to be held accountable.

[oldknight]

All rules need to be prudently applied to given circumstances, which requires sound human judgment so as to insure the result is just (what Aristotle referred to as phronesis). It is the job of administrators to carefully consider the circumstances and the rule in question. The problem here is that the persons in question at the NCAA (apparently) simply went to mappoint, typed in the addresses, clicked on the shortest route, and left it at that, not paying attention to the fact that there was a lake in the way, or that the difference between the shortest route and the quickest route is five hours of travel time. (According to mappoint the quickest route is still 211 miles.) In that case, choosing the shortest route is a clear violation of the principle in question, namely, not taking students away from school for too long. The problem is not with the rule, but with the person who made the determination. Such people can and ought to be held accountable.

There is truth in your comments but the fact of the matter is that the best way to avoid unfairness to the greatest extent possible is to come up with a workable rule, known to everyone in advance, that can be applied both before and after the game is played in order to test whether a given game is in-region. If the rules for determining whether a game is in-region was based on a published methodology to be applied, then the only unjust result I can see from the Hope-Carthage game is if the NCAA changed the method for determining whether it was in-region after it was scheduled. The obvious unfairness of changing the rules of the game after it began is exactly the reason the framers of the Constitution prohibited ex post facto legislation.

By the way HC, quit trying to class up this board with the use of high falutin' Latin.  

Addendum: Greek too.

[AlwaysHope]

I have been reading all the comments regarding the NCAA's unfair and arbitrary rules, many of which I agree with.  

Having said that, I HOPE that my favorite men's basketball team is not paying any attention to this discussion.  There is nothing they can do about it.  Instead they should be focusing on the home games that they will be playing next week.  Things are in their control, regardless of any unfair or arbitrary rules.  Win all three and it's tournament time!

[realist]

Just curious David, and Pat.    Why hasm't this conversation been shunted to the topics board?  Talk about arbitrary!

[realist]

NOW we can drag out the picture of the deceased equine...   

Take your pick:





What ever did we do without Google?

[HopeConvert]

All rules need to be prudently applied to given circumstances, which requires sound human judgment so as to insure the result is just (what Aristotle referred to as phronesis). It is the job of administrators to carefully consider the circumstances and the rule in question. The problem here is that the persons in question at the NCAA (apparently) simply went to mappoint, typed in the addresses, clicked on the shortest route, and left it at that, not paying attention to the fact that there was a lake in the way, or that the difference between the shortest route and the quickest route is five hours of travel time. (According to mappoint the quickest route is still 211 miles.) In that case, choosing the shortest route is a clear violation of the principle in question, namely, not taking students away from school for too long. The problem is not with the rule, but with the person who made the determination. Such people can and ought to be held accountable.

There is truth in your comments but the fact of the matter is that the best way to avoid unfairness to the greatest extent possible is to come up with a workable rule, known to everyone in advance, that can be applied both before and after the game is played in order to test whether a given game is in-region. If the rules for determining whether a game is in-region was based on a published methodology to be applied, then the only unjust result I can see from the Hope-Carthage game is if the NCAA changed the method for determining whether it was in-region after it was scheduled. The obvious unfairness of changing the rules of the game after it began is exactly the reason the framers of the Constitution prohibited ex post facto legislation.

By the way HC, quit trying to class up this board with the use of high falutin' Latin.  

Absolutely. And it wasn't the rule that changed here, it was the method, and clearly neither team knew that the game was going to count as in-region, largely because it's a stupid application of the new method. And that's all I got's to say 'bout that.