MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Absolutely. And it wasn't the rule that changed here, it was the method, and clearly neither team knew that the game was going to count as in-region, largely because it's a stupid application of the new method.

Here's the thing that gets me about this complaint from Hope fans -- were you going to schedule differently, knowing Carthage would be ruled in-region? No, this is a four-year commitment to play these teams. You were going to play the game anyway.

Do you think Hope's players would have played the game differently knowing it was in-region in the first place? I sure as heck hope not.

So what's the difference? Really, you're complaining because it's another loss that counts. But Hope wouldn't have scheduled differently and wouldn't have played differently if it had advance knowledge.

Pat - you're missing our point.  It's not the effect this has this year, it's the effect it would have had last year.  Would Hope have hosted the regional wiht 1 more in region win - possibly - in which case you could bet on a much different outcome.  Fact is whether they change the rules or use different software (which you could argue is changing the rules) this whole thing is ridiculous.

I have a very simply solution to offer.  Every game against a D3 opponent counts!

[sac]

Actually FDF its more that the in-region rule and qowi calculations are just a dumb way to select and seed a tournament..........changing what counts for said stupid criteria in mid-stream and using a computer program that kicks out routes no one with half a brain would ever take just makes it more of a circus.  No sports teams from Hope or Carthage will ever make that trip in under 200 miles.

You will never convince me the current system is better than a room full of regional representatives hammering out their regions selections, seems we got along pretty well the old way.

Oh yeah can't wait for the regional rankings in 2 weeks..........oops forgot, its a "secret" ranking

Done ranting for the year on this.

[bulldogalum]

Well, we've survived a scare in defeating Alma.  I said a few weeks back that I didn't particularly want to see Albion again this season, and unfortunately I'm going to have to.  They scare me because they've really turned it around and have started playing very nice basketball.  Moreover, it is always hard to beat a team for a third time.  That being said, at least the game will be played at what promises to be a raucous Merillat Center environment.

Here's hoping for an exciting run in the MIAA tournament for the boys in Black and Gold.  Good luck to everyone else.

[sac]

Hope 78 Tri-State 59

(I want a game tape to review a mystery foul and FT when TSU had 20 points, I'm not the only one who thinks the final score is 1 point heavy for TSU.)

Not a pretty first half to be sure, as mentioned neither team could hit a 3 to save the world, which is really sad because I like the world.  As a matter of fact Hope couldn't and didn't hit a shot outside of 1 ft for about 10 minutes.  Fortunately the Dutchmen played pretty good defense this afternoon and as FDF noted it was the starting 5 who got it done.  It may not have been the definative moments in the game, but Hope held TSU scoreless for two 5 minutes stretches of the first half and just one FG the final 7 minutes, and it certainly influenced the 2nd half.  Had Hope shot a bit better it would have been long over at halftime.

Second half Tri-State really tried to pick the tempo of the game up, and this only served to get Hope going offensively.  Hope got several break out baskets, but mostly they really tried to get the ball inside to several different people.   Hope's 2nd half shooting % was probably over 70 untill the final 5 minutes largely because of layups.   Ryan Klein seemed to be the biggest recipiant, he lost his man inside alot, and had a couple great fade aways.   Really a great half from Ryan.  Steve Cramer also had a great half, I'm not sure he missed in the second half.

Tsu scored the last 8 points of the game while Hope was messing with lineups, trying to get Sr's on and off the floor, pretty ugly finish for sure.

Benford was wearing a splint or something on his left hand and was just off all day, Brookens spent most of Saturday shooting from the 2nd green on Zollner Golf Course.......but TSU sure had some in and outs today, for awhile it was epic futility for both from 3.  I bet the average length on their 3 point attempts was closer to 25 than 20 though.

Cramer a very pleasant 19, Klein 14, Reimink 14, Partridge 10

I was impressed with the contributions from a number of guys, like VanderHeide, Richardson and Wolfe who didn't get the scoring but also had solid games.  Wolfe was an animal on the boards and driving the baseline.

13 MIAA wins is Hope's all-time best in conference play I believe, exceeding even the most optomistic Hope fans' expectations for this season.  It really has been a fun team to watch this year.  This is the first time I've been to every road game in an MIAA season and its been really neat to see the great support these guys get away from DeVos consistently.   Parents make a tremendous sacrifice to follow their kids on the road thats for sure.

[sac]

My night cap was Albion 68 Olivet 54

I don't think the final tells the story and yet it probably does.  Albion hit a spell in the middle of the first half on where they just couldn't hit any shots, prior to that they had great ball movement, good spacing and just seemed to be running circles through the Comets.   It was easy.  I don't really think Olivet did anything special on defense other than maybe finally figuring out Zak Silas needs to be guarded by someone other than air.

Olivet kindof ground their way back into the game, even took a brief lead, ultimately though, mistakes took their toll on the Comets.  At 46-44, Jim Cash hit a 3 with a foul to make it 50-44, it was a killer, but Andy Sierminski returned a trey at the other end for 50-47, but from there it was all about Albion's execution on the offensive AND the defensive ends.  Olivet made a few turnovers, killed themselves from the FT line with 3 misses in the closing minutes, including the front of a 1for1.  Olivet couldn't play defense without fouling and  Albion nailed 12-14 from the stripe in the final 5 minutes.

Albion's getting great play from Cash, Silas and Holmes.  Drew Yancy had a nice night tonight, and they seem very comfortable in their PG play.....at least more than earlier this year.

I won't be able to figure out that stretch where the Brits went cold though.

Albion/Adrian will be the game of the first round next Wednesday for sure.

Also met the original  Bballmom by happenstance.

[sac]

....and my thoughts

------How about Alma leading Adrian for about the last 30 minutes, awesome numbers from Isaac Smith tonight.  One last second 3 from Albion hosting the Bulldogs.  Adrian needed that big night from Gallus.

------Well my info I received at Olivet was a bit off on the Kzoo/Calvin game, I was told Kzoo missed a layup to win, turns out it was to tie.  Should have known that would be a tough win...........another quiet week from the Calvin contingent? 

------I have to agree about the lighting inside Hershey Hall, it was a bit weird with the plastic covers over the lights......I didn't get that, maybe the daylight shining in the corners didn't help.  Nice facility though, plenty of room for a future MIAA Semi-Final weekend.  But I wonder if its ever been full.

-------When did the speed limit go up in Indiana to 70?  8)

-------Where are all those Olivet fans when Hope plays there?  Funny moment, Olivet's cheerleaders throw something into the crowd when they hit a 3 (don't remember that when Hope played there), midway through the 2nd half an object went flying across the gym and hit an Albion fan.......a little miffed, and searching for the offending party he chucked it at the wall.  At least I got a chuckle out of it.

------My favorite basketball week of the year is here. 8)

[Pat Coleman]

Absolutely. And it wasn't the rule that changed here, it was the method, and clearly neither team knew that the game was going to count as in-region, largely because it's a stupid application of the new method.

Here's the thing that gets me about this complaint from Hope fans -- were you going to schedule differently, knowing Carthage would be ruled in-region? No, this is a four-year commitment to play these teams. You were going to play the game anyway.

Do you think Hope's players would have played the game differently knowing it was in-region in the first place? I sure as heck hope not.

So what's the difference? Really, you're complaining because it's another loss that counts. But Hope wouldn't have scheduled differently and wouldn't have played differently if it had advance knowledge.

Pat - you're missing our point.  It's not the effect this has this year, it's the effect it would have had last year.  Would Hope have hosted the regional wiht 1 more in region win - possibly - in which case you could bet on a much different outcome.  Fact is whether they change the rules or use different software (which you could argue is changing the rules) this whole thing is ridiculous.

I have a very simply solution to offer.  Every game against a D3 opponent counts!

There was announced that a rule change was coming. Are you upset over the timing of the three-point line? Surely there were long shots the year before that could've helped Hope. How about the ever-changing alternate possession/held ball rules?

Come on now -- rules change all the time. It's part of sports, NCAA or otherwise. You don't like it because you didn't know about it -- and frankly, only because Hope lost. We wouldn't still be having this discussion otherwise and you know it.

[Pat Coleman]

changing what counts for said stupid criteria in mid-stream and using a computer program that kicks out routes no one with half a brain would ever take just makes it more of a circus.  No sports teams from Hope or Carthage will ever make that trip in under 200 miles.

It's a measuring stick -- what are you gonna do? Nobody ever once said you had to travel that route. You have to use SOMETHING as a measuring stick. This is the one.

Well, except Mr. Ypsi.

[epohog]

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it was something that we just weren't privvy to and the fact that Hope lost is also a factor. I guess the NCAA  doesn't have to answer to us, but it still would have been nice to know about it before. I know that you shouldn't prepare more for one game than the other, but reality is, you sometimes rest an athlete a little more and maybe take a few more chances on games that aren't considered a region game, you have to agree with that.

[NW Hope Fan]

The onus is on them to justify the change, and they haven't done that so far as I have seen. It (further) undermines its credibility as a rule-making institution.

Well, in all honesty, I'm not entirely sure they are required to justify it to you personally. I'm sure if the institutions inquired they might get a more specific reason than we did. I think the reason we got was more than they are required to give to you guys.

With all honesty Pat, as the A#1 guy on this site, maybe you should try a little harder to be a bit more professional when answering people's questions... I mean come on... A number of times this year I've noticed in questions that were not directly asked of you or directed at you, you respond in a defensive and somewhat jerky sort of way.

I appreciate everything you put into all the DIII sites, and you are way more of an authority than most of the people on here could ever dream of being, but I think that puts you in a very delicate position. You are not a "Joe Blow" poster that can or should go off on people just because they bother you. There is and should be a certain amount of integrity that goes along with running a website, and frankly I've lost a bit of respect for you this basketball season.

[Mr. Ypsi]

"by the book" may be fair, but what if it violates the reason for having the rule in the first place? 

Ypsi:

The reason for the rule is to make sure D-III schools in the team's local area are regional. Nothing more, nothing less.

changing what counts for said stupid criteria in mid-stream and using a computer program that kicks out routes no one with half a brain would ever take just makes it more of a circus.  No sports teams from Hope or Carthage will ever make that trip in under 200 miles.

It's a measuring stick -- what are you gonna do? Nobody ever once said you had to travel that route. You have to use SOMETHING as a measuring stick. This is the one.

Well, except Mr. Ypsi.

Geez, Pat, I hadn't said a word on the subject in four pages, and get dragged in anyway!

Since I assume there is some rationale behind the rule (beyond "to make sure D-III schools in the team's local area are regional.  Nothing more, nothing less." - I guess that explains why Occidental would be local for Wheaton, but not Calvin), I simply offered an alternative measuring stick, estimated time rather than mileage (equally arbitrary, but equally available online to schedulers) which better fits what I would assume that rationale to be: minimizing time away from campus for student-athletes.

I have no delusions that my alternative will be adopted, but maybe, just maybe, it will get people thinking about why the rule exists and, if it continues, what might make it work better for its intended purpose.  (I've made no secret of the fact that I would like to abandon 'in-region' entirely and let ADs, coaches, and administrators decide what is best for their student-athletes - with some sort of protection against those who would inevitably abuse such an open system, and I readily admit I have no idea what such protection would entail.)

[GoKnights68]

Wasn't at the game today, but I saw the stats.  I sure hope Veltema and Veldhouse can find their 3 point shot again, pronto.  Glad to see Meckes have a nice offensive outing.   I hope  Calvin can have a nice well-balanced offense for the tourney.  Hope looks like their back on track again with a solid win in a tough environment today.

[Pat Coleman]

"by the book" may be fair, but what if it violates the reason for having the rule in the first place? 

Ypsi:

The reason for the rule is to make sure D-III schools in the team's local area are regional. Nothing more, nothing less.

changing what counts for said stupid criteria in mid-stream and using a computer program that kicks out routes no one with half a brain would ever take just makes it more of a circus.  No sports teams from Hope or Carthage will ever make that trip in under 200 miles.

It's a measuring stick -- what are you gonna do? Nobody ever once said you had to travel that route. You have to use SOMETHING as a measuring stick. This is the one.

Well, except Mr. Ypsi.

Geez, Pat, I hadn't said a word on the subject in four pages, and get dragged in anyway!

Since I assume there is some rationale behind the rule (beyond "to make sure D-III schools in the team's local area are regional.  Nothing more, nothing less." - I guess that explains why Occidental would be local for Wheaton, but not Calvin),

This is the 200-mile rule we are talking about. You are trying to change the subject or muddy the waters by referring to a different rule.

[Pat Coleman]

The onus is on them to justify the change, and they haven't done that so far as I have seen. It (further) undermines its credibility as a rule-making institution.

Well, in all honesty, I'm not entirely sure they are required to justify it to you personally. I'm sure if the institutions inquired they might get a more specific reason than we did. I think the reason we got was more than they are required to give to you guys.

With all honesty Pat, as the A#1 guy on this site, maybe you should try a little harder to be a bit more professional when answering people's questions... I mean come on... A number of times this year I've noticed in questions that were not directly asked of you or directed at you, you respond in a defensive and somewhat jerky sort of way.

I appreciate everything you put into all the DIII sites, and you are way more of an authority than most of the people on here could ever dream of being, but I think that puts you in a very delicate position. You are not a "Joe Blow" poster that can or should go off on people just because they bother you. There is and should be a certain amount of integrity that goes along with running a website, and frankly I've lost a bit of respect for you this basketball season.

Sorry -- just because I run the site doesn't mean I give up my right to be a fan or to post on the boards. I would get a lot less enjoyment out of the site and it just wouldn't be worth my while if I had to conform to your idea of what I should be like.

Because I can come in and post on the boards, it makes the sites enjoyable for me. Since I spend thousands of hours a year on the sites, it needs to be something I enjoy, esp. since it doesn't pay the mortgage and I have a full-time job on top of it.

I know you are not the only person who feels this way, but this is actually the way it has been for a decade and while I've certainly mellowed with age, I'm not going to be able to take a bland, boring tone with every single post.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

There was announced that a rule change was coming. Are you upset over the timing of the three-point line? Surely there were long shots the year before that could've helped Hope. How about the ever-changing alternate possession/held ball rules?

Come on now -- rules change all the time. It's part of sports, NCAA or otherwise. You don't like it because you didn't know about it -- and frankly, only because Hope lost. We wouldn't still be having this discussion otherwise and you know it.

So you're saying the rule has changed - right?

changing what counts for said stupid criteria in mid-stream and using a computer program that kicks out routes no one with half a brain would ever take just makes it more of a circus.  No sports teams from Hope or Carthage will ever make that trip in under 200 miles.

It's a measuring stick -- what are you gonna do? Nobody ever once said you had to travel that route. You have to use SOMETHING as a measuring stick. This is the one.

Well, except Mr. Ypsi.

Or did the measuring stick change??

Sorry -- just because I run the site doesn't mean I give up my right to be a fan or to post on the boards. I would get a lot less enjoyment out of the site and it just wouldn't be worth my while if I had to conform to your idea of what I should be like.

OK, but why are you so quick to defend the NCAA?  Can you honestly say you think this is a reasonable situation?