MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[GoKnights68]

I couldn't make Saturday's game due to being at the OSU-UM game(yes, it was a bad sports weekend), but what is your opinion on Calvin's offense that game?  Some of my friends that went to that game were saying Calvin's offense just wan't run well.  I heard that Calvin stood around the perimeter a lot and did a lot of one on one stuff.  I'm sure it wasn't all like that, but is that a good way to discribe it in some degree? thoughts?

[Gregory Sager]

Not sure about the other posters, but I did not intend in any way to diminish what Welton has accomplished so far in his career.  He is a very good player, and deserves all the praise he has gotten.  Last night was not one of his better performances according to GS, and there is no disagreement about that.   Being biased some of us Calvin fans would like to think that Calvin's game plan, and Calvin's players made the results what they were.  It is not unreasonable to ask if his numbers would be the same if he played in the WIAC, or the CCIW or even the MIAA for a full season.  

I agree: It's not unreasonable to ask that, and, yes, we can't say for certain what Welton would do in an entire season of play in a better league.

But, since you asked, here's how Welton has done against CCIW and WIAC teams over the past two seasons:

2006-07
@ North Central	23 pts, 2 rebs
vs. Millikin	29 pts, 7 rebs
2005-06
@ Wheaton	12 pts, 8 rebs
@ Millikin	29 pts, 8 rebs
vs. UW-Oshkosh*	22 pts. 9 rebs
vs. North Central	24 pts, 4 rebs

* @ Las Vegas Shootout

Welton averaged 20.0 ppg and 6.7 rpg this season, and 22.8 ppg and 8.5 rpg last season, so his stats against CCIW and WIAC competition were pretty comparable to his overall stats.

I'm not at all saying that Calvin didn't do a good job of containing him on Friday night, but he did have an off-night nonetheless. What I am saying is that remarks about Welton not being a D1 player for a reason are not warranted based upon one viewing of the man on a subpar night. There are more than a few lower-level D1s who could use Larry Welton.

[Gregory Sager]

Officials: Mike Fox; Charles Russell and;

Do we know where these guys came from?  I want to send the schools in that league a sympathy card for putting up with them all season...

Saturday night's officials were from the HCAC.

[Gregory Sager]

Well, I've said for years that I wanted to see a Hope/Calvin game before I died. Now that I've checked that one off the list I can move on to scuba-diving at Australia's Great Barrier Reef, climbing the Spanish Steps in Rome, and dating Jessica Alba ... not necessarily in that order.

I have to agree with Q about Saturday night ... the game was so-so, the atmosphere was outstanding. The collection of eight or nine of us CCIWers sitting in Switzerland on Saturday night (representing four different CCIW schools, I might add ... plus Pete McBride, who was the Switzerland of Switzerland) were to a man very impressed by the spectacle of two immense crowds of fans going at it like that for forty minutes. You could tell that there was a different level of passion there than what is present even at a tournament game elsewhere. We're all very proud of our conference, and I don't think we'd trade places with anyone, but we all readily acknowledged that we don't have anything that even faintly resembles Hope/Calvin in the CCIW. I trust that each of you Michiganders appreciates just what a special rivalry you have.

Nobody needs to read my giving the umpteenth take on the game, so I'll just pass along my congratulations to a very good Hope team and to an outstanding player in Steven Cramer, and wish them the best of luck in Stevens Point next weekend. They'll need it; Carroll is nowhere near the Sweet Sixteen pushover some people around the country will inevitably make them out to be, and beating UWSP on their home floor at Quandt Fieldhouse is an uphill battle for anyone in D3.

It was great seeing so many old faces that I only get to see once every two or three years, and equally great to meet so many other MIAA posters and lurkers for the first time. Calvin and Hope are both wonderful schools that should be proud of how many class acts they turn out on a regular basis. And I'd also like to echo the people who thanked Aurora for putting on such a terrific regional.

[Roughrider]

By my count, I'm only about 18 pages behind this board after spending a lovely weekend in beautiful Aurora, IL, but I'll give it the "old college try" catching up these next few days.  After getting back to central Michigan yesterday afternoon, all I could do was "crash".  Sac, your commute to the DeVos is still shorter than mine, so count your blessings.

Congratulations to the Hope College Flying Dutchmen for taking the Aurora regional bracket, and advancing to the "Sweet Sixteen" once again.   

Congratulations to the Calvin College Knights on a great season, and a great effort in arguably the best rivalry in D3 hoops.  And a final salute to seniors Kyle Snoeyink, Josh Meckes, and Eric DeVries for all your great years with the Knights.   

Here are some new rivalry trivia questions, and some even newer answers.  Please correct me if I'm wrong, and help me out with the answers I don't have.

Q.  What's the most times the rivalry game has been played in any four-season span?
A.  2003-04 (2), 2004-05 (3), 2005-06 (4), 2006-07 (5), total 14 times.
Just a few pages back, one poster quoted an Aurora observer being surprised at how the players were talking to each other after the game as if they knew each other.  Now that's an understatement.   

Q.  Which Flying Dutchmen have played, or at least been on the roster, for the most rivalry games.
A.  That would be current seniors who were four-year varsity players, Stephen Cramer and Scott Richardson, 14 times.

Q.  Which Knights have played, or at least been on the roster, for the most rivalry games.
A.  Help me out here, Knight faithful.  Which of the current seniors have been four-year varsity players?

RR

[oldknight]

Q.  Which Knights have played, or at least been on the roster, for the most rivalry games.
A.  Help me out here, Knight faithful.  Which of the current seniors have been four-year varsity players?

RR

Meckes played in 13 Rivalry games in his career--I doubt very much that any other Calvin player has played in as many. He is the only one of the current senior class to play varsity all four years though he also played some JV ball his freshmen year (he appeared in 18 varsity games as a freshman). He did not make an appearance in the Calvin/Hope game that was played at the Fieldhouse during his freshman year but he did play in the game at the Civic, scoring 4 points in 4 minutes of playing time.

[HopeConvert]

Officials: Mike Fox; Charles Russell and;

Do we know where these guys came from?  I want to send the schools in that league a sympathy card for putting up with them all season...

Saturday night's officials were from the HCAC.

Would that be the Hope Calvin Athletic Conference? Because they have played a complete season against each other, it seems.

[CalvinChelseaMom]

Officials: Mike Fox; Charles Russell and;

Do we know where these guys came from?  I want to send the schools in that league a sympathy card for putting up with them all season...

Saturday night's officials were from the HCAC.

Would that be the Hope Calvin Athletic Conference? Because they have played a complete season against each other, it seems.

Good one, HC.   

Well, I've finished my "freshman" season as a parent!  I must say that the intensity is all relative!  This weekend, for us, Calvin's games were surrounded by our Chelsea player's game and our 5th grader's travel tournament.  We had to head back to Michigan for a 5th grade championship game Sunday afternoon.  I can't tell you how mellow I felt, I just wanted to tell everyone to relax, it's just 5th grade!!  After coming from an NCAA tournament game, it seemed the parents were taking it a little tooooo seriously!  They might not survive through high school basketball.  MHSAA playoffs start tonight and then AAU travel, so hey, I only have 5 more months of basketball to go.  About this time of the year, I start hearing whistles in my sleep.

Congratulations to Hope for an excellent weekend of basketball.  May they continue to play their best basketball. 

Congratulations to Calvin for fighting hard this season through all the ups and downs, and to the seniors for their leadership and fine example.  Looking forward to  next year!

And, it was nice to meet several posters, thanks for coming up to me and introducing yourselves.  I now have some faces to go with posts.  And thanks to all for the encouraging emails throughout the season and after this weekend!

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Hope vs Carroll - team stats:

Offense	% 2pt	% 3pt	% FT
Hope	48.6	42.5	74.2
Carroll	49.0	39.3	76.4
Defense	% 2pt	% 3pt
Hope	39.8	31.0
Carroll	45.8	34.6
Rebounding	Team	Opp	Margin
Hope	37.1	32.6	4.5
Carroll	33.0	34.2	-1.2
Scoring	Team	Opp	Margin
Hope	80.6	62.9	17.7
Carroll	81.8	75.8	6
3 point shooting	Attempts	Made	Made/game
Hope	679	263	9.1
Carroll	578	227	8.7
Blocks	Total	per game
Hope	109	3.76
Carroll	66	2.53
Steals	Total	per game
Hope	297	10.2
Carroll	192	7.4
Turnovers	Total	per game
Hope	416	14.3
Carroll	357	13.7
Assists	Total	per game
Hope	445	15.3
Carroll	420	16.2
Assist/Turnover
Hope	1.07
Carroll	1.18

[petemcb]

Officials: Mike Fox; Charles Russell and;

Do we know where these guys came from?  I want to send the schools in that league a sympathy card for putting up with them all season...

I asked a well-known and very informed neutral observer/poster what he thought of the officiating. He told me what conference it was, but I can't remember what he said. He did say it was a terribly officiated game (I agree - about the worst I've ever seen) but that it was accidentally even. That was my sense as well: that when it all shook out both schools got hosed pretty badly.

HopeConvert, I believe I heard that Friday night's crew was a regular CCIW crew. I know I have seen them a few times, and I see more CCIW games than any other conference.  As has been stated a few times, they were bad, but even.  The same applied to Saturday night's crew, although I don't know them.

By the way, thanks again for some great Hope hospitality on neutral territory.  I really appreciate you picking up those tickets for me at Hope on Friday.   That was a great first impression of Hope people for my college-searching son.

[realist]

GS:  Thanks for the additional information on Welton.  I have to agree that I thought the comment on Welton and DI was one of those things that never should have been said.  Obviously he did not have a great game on Friday.  However, he has had a great career, and is a very capable player.
Having been to some low level D1 games the talent level there isn't that much better than some D3 players imho. 

[realist]

From the information available here it sounds like Hope is going up against a team that likes the underdog role, and one that likes to be giant killers.  Teams in that position often play like they have nothing to lose, and come out giving it everything they have.  I think this Hope team is more than capable of handling Carroll.  To do that they will need to come out focused, but not tight.  FWIW:  The games this past weekend were well coached by GVW.  I also think KVS did a good job, but Hope just had to many weapons.  No shame in loosing to a better team.
Good luck to Hope this weekend.  They are going to need it.

[almcguirejr]

GS:  Thanks for the additional information on Welton.  I have to agree that I thought the comment on Welton and DI was one of those things that never should have been said.  Obviously he did not have a great game on Friday.  However, he has had a great career, and is a very capable player.
Having been to some low level D1 games the talent level there isn't that much better than some D3 players imho. 

Welton had a difficult game because of Josh Meckes's defense.  Welton was 5-16 Sat. night.  2 years ago 5-14.  Both games Meckes was the primary defender.  Meckes is hard to play against.  He deserves credit for the game he played against Welton.

[oldknight]

GS:  Thanks for the additional information on Welton.  I have to agree that I thought the comment on Welton and DI was one of those things that never should have been said.  Obviously he did not have a great game on Friday.  However, he has had a great career, and is a very capable player.
Having been to some low level D1 games the talent level there isn't that much better than some D3 players imho. 

Welton had a difficult game because of Josh Meckes's defense.  Welton was 5-16 Sat. night.  2 years ago 5-14.  Both games Meckes was the primary defender.  Meckes is hard to play against.  He deserves credit for the game he played against Welton.

I wasn't at Friday's game but I did see Aurora two years ago and Meckes did a great job in 2005 against a younger, but obviously very talented Welton. Even though, at that time, Welton was only a freshman it was clear that his athletic attributes were plentiful and the matchup against Meckes' defense was a highlight. On one play Meckes made a spectacular block from behind after Welton picked Ricky Shilts' pocket at mid-court and was going in for what Welton thought was an uncontested dunk. I believe the ref called a foul on the play but it was one of those blocks you typically only see at the D1 level--both Welton and Meckes were well above the rim.

[SKOT]

An interesting matchup to watch will be Steven Cramer from Hope up against Nathan Drury from Carroll.  Drury is averaging 20 points/game (he had 32 against Augie and 17 against St. Thomas).  It should be a good one to watch this weekend