MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[MIdoubleA]

I'm guessing we're going to see a lot of Calvin in the list to come...

[GoKnights68]

GK68:  Sac pointed out early on that post season success is no indicator of how a team will finsih in the final standings, and using #8 & #7 this is obvious.  IMHO this is a fundamental flaw in the criteria used to come up with the rankings.  However, it is very interesting reading, and I applaud Sac for putting in the time and effort to provide this material for us.   It has been enjoyable recalling some of the games, and players.

Oh no worries.  I applaud SAC for what he is doing also.  I didn't really get a chance to read the explanation of how he decides the rankings.

Yes, SAC.  Thanks for pulling all of this information together.  I've only checked in a few times this summer, and frankly, it wasn't very fun.  Thanks for getting us back on track.  Hope you're enjoying the off-season.

You know, I read all the posts about karma over the last number of weeks and thought, "What's the big deal about karma?"  It is a little mind-boggling though how I can lose karma over the above post.  My gosh, someone needs to get a life.

I just wouldn't worry about karma.  it is pretty pointless to me.  I mean, how does hope1, probably the nicest hoper on here, have negative 14 karma?  just don't take it seriously...

[GoKnights68]

I'm guessing we're going to see a lot of Calvin in the list to come...

I guess so.  I feel 2006 Calvin will be coming up soon? 

[Joel-Eric Van Bosma Brady]

Rookie mistakes...

Please forgive my focus on Hope (and to some extent Calvin) , and lack there of for the rest of the MIAA.  Perhaps I put too much stock into championships (MIAA, MIAA Tourney, Sectional/Regional, and National)  in personally determining rankings.   I can't figure out how the 2007 Hope team out ranks the 1998 Hope team.  I might also put too much stock into the Hope-Calvin games.  The 2007 team lost twice at home to Calvin down the stretch.   They won one  the aforementioned championships.  1998  won two, and won a game at the final four which is, in my mind, significant.   Having said that,  the 2007 Hope team made my personal top10 of all-time Hope teams, and Stephen was great down the stretch.   In my opinion, the 2007 Hope team cannot outrank any final four team (including..hard swallow...Calvin's). 

Here's my all-time MIAA team:

PG   Eric Elliott  All MIAA 89-91, Co MVP 90, MVP 91, Swedish Hoop Legend
SG   Joel Holstege  All MIAA 86-98, MVP 97 & 98, two final fours
F     Floyd Brady    All MIAA 66-68, Street and Smith's legend.
PF   Duane Bosma  All MIAA  93-96,  MVP 95, Co MVP 96, final four.
C    Steve Honderd  All MIAA   90-93, MVP 92 (MIAA.org has Knoester the MVP in 93, is that right!?!?!?)  National Champ,  two final fours.

2nd Team

PG   I wish I knew who on the HM played point guard so I could insert them.
SG   Chris Knoester  All MIAA MVP 92 & 93, National Champ.
F     Aaron Winkle  All MIAA 98-2000,  MVP 99 & 2000, National Champ.
PF   Bill Sall   All MIAA 87, 89, 90. Co MVP 89 & 90,  Final Four.
C    Mark Veenstra  ALL MIAA 74-77, Calvin's scoring and rebounding monster.

Honorable Mention

Ray Ritsema, Hope,  All MIAA 58-60.
Paul Benes,  Hope,  All MIAA 57-59. 
Chip Henry, Hope,  All MIAA 83-85.
Jeremy Veenstra, Calvin,  All MIAA 2000-03,  MVP 01 & 02 National Champ.
John Niebert, Albion ,  All MIAA 78 and 79,  Final Four.
Mike Maciasz, Olivet,  All MIAA 70-72, Olivet won 2 straight MIAA crowns from71 -73.
At least 3 dudes from Kalamazoo teams in the 1914 -1923 era.

Apologies to:

Jermey Cole, K, 1996 Co-MVP
Michael Turner and Travis (05 MVP) Dupree of Albion
Dan "Sweet Beard" Davis  All MIAA 88, Co MVP 89
Other Calvin and Hope players

All Time Coach:  Coach Van Wieren
HM:  Coach Turner, Albion;  Coach Ralph Young who coached Kzoo to  8 straight crowns from 1916-1923;  and, I guess, the Coaches Douma and VanderStreek.

I can already anticipate the Knoester and J. Veenstra discussions.   Sway me...

[sac]

Computers can't tell the difference between a final four game and a game vs Grace Bible, unless you tell it to.........and I haven't told it to.


Hard for me to put into words what this program describes, which is why I don't share the info much.  Maybe, strength,  or performance vs their schedule, something along that line.  Not sure its well suited to comparing teams outside of their own seasons.

Also, the best teams don't always go the furthest in a tournament, there are many many teams who have NCAA Championship banners hanging from their rafters in Div 1 who I wouldn't have called the best or strongest of their season.  They just won a tournament, granted a big one, but 3 weeks of great basketball doesn't excuse 2 months of struggling along.  Judging a whole season based on 3 weeks is entirely different from judging a full season, which is what this ranking does.

IF the D3 tournament were nationally balanced then maybe you could judge teams by how far they go, but I've seen too many final four caliber matchups happen too early in a tournament.   The Great Lakes, Midwest and West Regions are brutal, always have been.  The list of National Champion or Runner-up teams that eliminated an MIAA rep is really long.


To expand a little, take the 2007 Hope team and give them Hope's 1998 tournament opponents, I believe the result would be the same Hope in the final.  But 2007 met a very strong Washington squad in the quarters, and they were better than any team 98 faced up to UW-Platteville, by far honestly.   Can we definitively say 98 was better than 2007, not in my mind and not based on what the numbers say.  To be honest, the numbers are so close, and I'll provide them after its done, I mean really they rate basically the same.

At any rate I'm enjoying putting it together.

[bionbrit]

I'm a long time reader of this site but first time poster. Obvisouly I'm a huge Albion fan. Sac your top 10 poll is awesome.  I would think most people at Albion would agree that the 2003 Brett Qualye led Brits were better then the 2006 Albion College Crawfords. The 03 squad started slow then won 18 of their next 20 set what was then the school record for wins. I also love the fact that the 05 brits are not on your poll yet. Anytime a team has two first team All Americans and the second leading scrorer in school history you have a pretty squad. I think that just shows how good Calvin was that year.  Kind of forgotten about on the 05 team was starting pg lonny fulse and back up post Brian Champine. Lonny started every game for the Brits in 05 and Champine really came on strong at the end of the year. Its to bad they both only worked out for one year. I would have liked to see the 06 team with those two guys. A paint with Champine and Crawford would have been scary.

[Joel-Eric Van Bosma Brady]

I enjoy the work you're putting in,  but disagree with essentially everything you just wrote.   From my perspective, March and it's related tournaments, define seasons and teams.  My experience has been that talented teams that get beat "early" in March have fundamental flaws that prevent them from truly being a great team or a
Championship team.  It goes back to the intangiables that are so hard to explain yet so very important to successful basketball teams.  Chemistry, work ethic, selflessness, etc.  During the NBA draft last night Jay Bilas put it very well: Something along the lines of rather having a player who hated to lose vs. a player that loves to win.  I think that teams that perform well in March, hate to lose.  

In terms of the imperfections of the D3 system, my answer is this:  The best teams beat who is in front of them regardless of time, place, or any other excuse you can think of...This is where March, because of its very nature, is far different from the regular season, and why it is so important in defining great teams and champions.    Every team that has gotten to the final four and won a National Championship in D3  has faced the same imperfections you describe,  the simple difference is that those teams won.    Hypotheticals aside, here are the facts:  2007 lost to Washington, a team that did not win National Championship,  on a neutral floor in the round of 8.  1998 lost to Platteville, a National Champion/and a team you described as the best D3 team you have ever seen, on a neutral floor in the NC.  

Keep the info coming Sac,  I find it very compelling.

[SBell]

If you judge a team merely on post-season success, you run the risk of remembering it for just one game. 25-35 games would seem to be more indicative of how good the team actually was.

Non-MIAA example ... North Carolina in 1984 was very likely than any of the three modern UNC teams that won national titles, certainly two of them ... but Kenny Smith had a freak injury in a meaningless non-conference game in the middle of the ACC season ... Michael Jordan got two early fouls and was benched in the first half in the tournament, ending up losing to IU ... Nevertheless, a team with Michael Jordan, Sam Perkins, Brad Daugherty and Kenny Smith would win 9 out of 10 vs. a team with Eric Montross, George Lynch, Donald Williams and Derrick Phelps.

[Joel-Eric Van Bosma Brady]

I wouldn't ignore the regular season.   But, personally, March performance separates when all other things are relatively equal.  I believe that that there are at least 18 teams in Hope history that are close in terms of talent and regular season performance:  1958 - 1960;   1984-85;  1987;  1989-1991;  1995-1998; and 2003-2007.   So what separates them for the sake of rankings?   For me,  it comes down to championships and March runs. 

Maybe the 1984 Tarheels lacked some of the intangiables (depth and selflessness) that defines Tarheel Championship team.  For me it is potential vs. performance.  I'll take performance everytime.   What I am getting at may be best embodied in Team USA recent performances in international competition.  I would argue that we have clearly had the most talented rosters every year,  what we have lacked are the intangiables that make a team great.

[GoKnights68]

2nd Team

PG   I wish I knew who on the HM played point guard so I could insert them.
SG   Chris Knoester  All MIAA MVP 92 & 93, National Champ.
F     Aaron Winkle  All MIAA 98-2000,  MVP 99 & 2000, National Champ.
PF   Bill Sall   All MIAA 87, 89, 90. Co MVP 89 & 90,  Final Four.
C    Mark Veenstra  ALL MIAA 74-77, Calvin's scoring and rebounding monster.



I like that you made a list for that, but there is no question that Mark Veenstra should be on first team.  He's usually considered one of the greatest d3 players of all-time even by non-Calvin fans.  4-time MIAA mvp by the way.

[Joel-Eric Van Bosma Brady]

goknights68,

I guess the reason I gave the nod to Honderd and Bosma is two fold:  1.)  MIAA.org doesn't list league MVP's until 1989, so I wasn't sure the league even named an MVP's in Mark Veenstra's day.  2.)  From my perspective, it seems that one of the greatest division 3 players of all time would have led his team to at least 1 National Championship game.   

Having said that,  M. Veenstra has always been mentioned as one of the greats in the discussions in which I have been involved.   I never had the chance to see him play.  Strong arguments could be made for both Veenstras, Knoester, Winkle, and some currently unnamed dudes from KZOO being on the first team.

[Pat Coleman]

Here you go, what appears to be a full list of MIAA MBB MVPs.

http://www.miaa.org/mbb/mbbmvp.html

[calvin_grad]

From my perspective, it seems that one of the greatest division 3 players of all time would have led his team to at least 1 National Championship game.   

I'm far from an expert on MIAA basketball history, but the miaa.org web page shows that no MIAA teams were in the national tournament before 1978.  Considering Veenstra played from 74-77, that would have made it tough for him to lead Calvin to the National Chamionship game.

BTW, did the MIAA just not participate in the national tournament before 1978?

[Flying Dutch Fan]

From my perspective, it seems that one of the greatest division 3 players of all time would have led his team to at least 1 National Championship game.   

I'm far from an expert on MIAA basketball history, but the miaa.org web page shows that no MIAA teams were in the national tournament before 1978.  Considering Veenstra played from 74-77, that would have made it tough for him to lead Calvin to the National Chamionship game.

BTW, did the MIAA just not participate in the national tournament before 1978?

Found two pieces information in another posting area (a board devoted to teams all time records in DIII)

Agreed, but the first Division III championship was 1974-75 for men's basketball. Before then I suppose you could have teams from the old college division settling between the two divisions and we might not really know where they stood in any particular season.

Found out this week Hope was a charter member of D3, I assume the rest of the MIAA was as well.

Since 74-75 thru 05-06 Hope is 594-230 for .721


17 NCAA Tournament appearances 20-19 record

Two Final Fours in 1996, 1998 both runner-up

[Pat Coleman]

I believe I have read elsewhere, though I am not positive, that the MIAA held itself out of the NCAA Tournament until that 1977-78 season.