MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Just found this on the MIAA Website - History of the MIAA (which lists milestones):

1976 The Kalamazoo College men's tennis team won the NCAA Division III national title -- the first national team championship for an MIAA college.

The league's ban on post-season competition was lifted  

[sac]

This is pure speculation on my part, but in 1977 Calvin was MIAA Champion and finished with a record of just 13-8.  I'd guess that wasn't deemed good enough for a tournament invite.   

1976 Calvin was 18-4, certainly the record doesn't explain a non-invite.   But with just a 32 team field and I believe just 4 teams from your region invited, its conceivable 18-4 wasn't good enough.


Either that or Calvin didn't have enough in-region wins in either 1976 or 1977, and I'm guessing their SOSI wasn't very high either.  8)



The shame of the post-season ban was that the 1975 Calvin team at 22-1 didn't get to participate in the post-season.

[realist]

JEVBB:  I saw them all play since early 60's, and your list is interesting, but has a Hope bias.    For example: reality would have M Veenstra as #1 center, and Honderd as PF.   Bosma did not fair well against Honderd, and would have done worse against M Veenstra.  The biggest rap against Bosma was he didn't like banging down inside, and never dominated any game against a good, tall, more physical player.
Good luck in your efforts to convince some of these posters that post season performance is relevant.
Keep up the good work Sac, and fellow posters.  This has been a great few days discussing players, and teams.
Except, not accept.

[sac]

Bosma only played against Honderd as a Freshman, vs a 4 year veteran Senior.   Not exactly a fair fight. 

[sac]

#4  2005 Albion


26-4, 12-2  MIAA Champion, NCAA Quarterfinal,  Final D3hoops ranking #5


Most used starting lineup

G Michael Thomas
G Lonnie Fulse
C Brandon Crawford
F Garrett Gibbons
F Travis DePree

Bench:  Mike Bailey, Zak Silas, Evan Way, Rick Palmer, Will Braaksma, Brian Champine


The 2005 Britons were returning a solid core of players from back to back 20 win teams.  Without the pressure of a pre-season ranking the Britons began the season rolling to comfortable wins over D3's Ohio Wesleyan, Washington and DePauw.  As December began the Britons earned their first ranking of the season at #20.

The final game before Christmas proved to be one of two scares the Britons would face in the non-conference, escaping with a 78-76 win over neighbor Spring Arbor.  A trip to Phoenix followed after Christmas and the Brits continued to roll with double-digit wins over Mount Union and Ramapo.   The final game was a 64-62 win over Linfield,  at 10-0, the Britons were now ranked #7.

Albion's MIAA campaign began with a bang with a 68-65 win at Calvin, followed just 4 days later with a 14 point win at Hope.  The Britons were 3-0 and already won on their chief challengers home floors, they were way ahead of the game and had climbed all the way to #2 at 14-0.

Just one week later, the Britons would suffer their first loss at the hands of Adrian in a 71-67 OT thriller.   Albion, Adrian and Calvin were all tied for the MIAA lead at 4-1.  The 2005 title was almost thrown away the following game when Albion survived a 62-61 win at home to Alma.   Tricky trips to Kzoo and Olivet produced two double-digit wins and Albion was now at the defining point of the season.   Calvin and Hope were coming to Albion.

Calvin was improving all season, and coming off a 29 point demolition of contender Adrian.  The game between top 25 foes was a classic with Albion winning 78-76 in OT.    Albion was just one hurdle from a sure Championship, the 10-10 Dutchmen.  Albion had beaten Hope by 14 3 weeks earlier, but on this day it was Hope who produced their finest effort of the season to upset the Britons 68-59.  Once again the MIAA race was tied.

The 4 remaining games on the MIAA schedule would be some of the finest basketball the 05 Britons would play, racking up 4 straight double-digit wins.  Along the way Hope had proven to be the big factor in the MIAA race by upsetting Calvin giving Albion a 1 game lead in the MIAA chase.  Albion would celebrate their first outright MIAA title since 1979 and their 2nd in 3 seasons with a 79-66 win at Kresge over Kzoo.

It was no surprise that the 2005 MIAA Tournament Championship would come down to Calvin and Albion.  With Albion hosting its 2nd MIAA Tournament weekend, Calvin would prevail 63-59 in a tough defensive battle.  Both Albion and Calvin would gain bids to the NCAA.

Albion earned a top seed and bye from round 1.  Their first game brought Wooster to Kresge.   After dominating the Scots in the first half, Wooster rallied to tie the game late.  A controversial foul as time expired put Travis DePree on the line with 1 second left.  Albion would win 59-58.

The following weekend brought the Sectional to Albion with Mississippi College, John Carroll and Calvin.  Albion was paired with JCU and a raucus crowd of 1453 witnessed one of the best and dramatic games of the 2005 tournament.  JCU rallied in the last 2 minutes of the game to stun the Britons and lead 79-77 with just seconds remaining.  Michael Thomas provided the heroic moment when his desperation 3 from around 30 feet rattled home, bouncing high off the rim.  It was a stunner, Albion had won 80-79 and both teams fans had rushed the court.

Few MIAA games if any have had the importance of the 2005 Quarterfinal between Calvin and Albion.  1505 squeezed into Krege Gym to witness the defensive struggle.  Albion found points hard to come by, and Calvin pulled away down the stretch to send the Knights to Salem.  The finest season for Albion in 27 years had come to an abrupt end.



Notes:   Without a doubt one of the finest teams Mike Turner has produced at Albion.   This team had great teamwork and it all revolved around league MVP Travis DePree.  If there's such thing as a point forward, it was  Travis.   Very few players have stuck out as an MVP without putting up great offensive numbers, but that certainly was Travis.  What struck me reviewing the season was how this team really didn't rely on one or two guys, but had very balanced scoring for most of the season.

Obviously they'd rank higher had they beaten Calvin in the Quarterfinal.  The only two blips were the losses to Adrian and Hope and that hurts them a bit.   Their offensive style doesn't put up great numbers and that also hurts their rating.

This teams tournament run was filled with more drama than most people can take in a season.  The Wooster and JCU games were fantastic competitive games that literally came down to a single play.  The atmosphere those last 3 weekends at Kresge were some of the best I've been a part of following D3.  Very memorable team.

[Joel-Eric Van Bosma Brady]

Thank you for the education on MIAA involvement in the NCAA, as well as the MIAA MVPs.   I used the MVP info off of miaa.org's all-conference selections link.  I did not realize  that the DIII Men's Basketball Championships began in 74-75 and that the MIAA held out for some years.  Thanks for the education.   In my mind,  M. Veenstra's arugment becomes even stronger.

Realist:  I try to be as unbiased as possible, but  realize my attempts sometimes fail.  M. Veenstra and Honderd together on the 1st team,  is a strong/viable arugment.

[Pat Coleman]

Anyone know why the MIAA didn't participate?

[oldknight]

Anyone know why the MIAA didn't participate?

Pat:  There is a history to the story (much of which I've forgotten) that goes back to the days long before the NCAA was divided into the D1, D2, and D3 classifications we know today. In the 1950s and 60s the NCAA had a large and small college division with the MIAA obviously being in the small college division. The conference simply wasn't too keen on participating in post season tournaments in the small college division. MIAA school presidents were concerned about the possible negative impact that allowing athletes in team sports participate in post season play would have on academics--particularly since competing in the NCAA setup available at that time would have MIAA schools competing against those that did award athletic scholarships. In essence they feared that having MIAA schools involved with post season play against others now classified as D2 would lure some MIAA institutions into offering athletic scholarships or taking other "anti-academic" shortcuts in order to compete at the national level. This led the conference to ultimately ban its members from participating in post season play. Hillsdale was once a member institution, had an excellent football team (I think Frank "Muddy" Waters was coach then) and got invited to NCAA post season play. The school accepted the invitation and promptly got kicked out of the league.

Eventually the NCAA did agree to create the three division format we're all familiar with today (I think it started in 1974) This permitted D3 schools who wanted to compete in post season play against like minded institutions to do so. Though the creation of D3 occurred when Mark Veenstra was at Calvin the conference powers-that-be simply were slow in making the change in their longstanding ban on allowing post season play. Part of the reason was simple inertia but I suspect the conference was also assessing the impact of the NCAA change creating the D3 category before deciding to change its rule. The conference ban on post season play was eliminated the year after Mark graduated. I have no doubt that if Calvin had been allowed to participate in the D3 tournament when Mark was at Calvin that he would have led the Knights to at least one Final Four appearance. He was simply too dominating a figure not to.

Which leads me to JEVBB's list. Sorry JEVBB, you just can't leave Mark off the first team. He was that good--definately better than Duane Bosma who certainly was an outstanding player. But in 48 conference games over 4 years Mark averaged 25 points and 12 boards a game and he won 4 straight MVP awards. I've seen every player on your list play--from Floyd Brady on--and you just can't leave Veenstra off the all time first team.

[KnightSlappy]

Here is a note of (dis)interest.  I spotted our good pal Mr. Todd Geerlings out in Muskegon at the Lifehouse/Goo Goo Dolls concert at Summer Celebration.

[GoKnights68]

From my perspective, it seems that one of the greatest division 3 players of all time would have led his team to at least 1 National Championship game.   

I'm far from an expert on MIAA basketball history, but the miaa.org web page shows that no MIAA teams were in the national tournament before 1978.  Considering Veenstra played from 74-77, that would have made it tough for him to lead Calvin to the National Chamionship game.

BTW, did the MIAA just not participate in the national tournament before 1978?

Yes, it was a terrible rule by the miaa.  I just hate that they all of a sudden decided to change the rule right after Veenstra graduated.  In my opinion, the combo of Veenstra and Hoogewind could've easily won a national championship or two.  he's just that good......but no I never got to see him play.  My dad did and mentions him at just about every Calvin game it seems like!

[GoKnights68]

Here is a note of (dis)interest.  I spotted our good pal Mr. Todd Geerlings out in Muskegon at the Lifehouse/Goo Goo Dolls concert at Summer Celebration.

lol!  I think he was or is reffing the Grand Rapids Storms games still this summer? 

[realist]

JEVBB;  No problem.  Each of us has a bias, and that makes the board interesting.   It is hard evaluating players one hasn't seen, or sees only a couple of times a year.
Sac;  Your comment on Bosma/Honderd is valid.  However,  I never did see Bosma dominate in a game against a physical player.  Perhaps he did, but not one I witnessed.   

[bulldogalum]

My dad, a Hope alum, swears that the Veenstra era Knights would have won at least two national titles.  He's probably the best player on the first team all time.

[oldknight]

My dad, a Hope alum, swears that the Veenstra era Knights would have won at least two national titles.  He's probably the best player on the first team all time.

I'm willing to go so far as to say that if I was on a committee creating an all-time D3 hoops team I would put Mark Veenstra on that first team too. I've seen a lot of D3 games and players over the years and no one presented a more imposing challenge to a defense than did Mark. Those rare occasions when an opposing coach was foolish enough or ignorant enough to try and guard him straight up he shredded that team's defense.

I don't know if Calvin would have won at least two national titles that era but Calvin would have been a favorite to win D3 at least once during the mid-70's. I think Mark's sophomore and junior years were particularly strong because those teams were especially deep and were led by a superior point guard--Mark Hoogewind. If you want to play the silly "we beat someone who beat someone else" game I go back to Veenstra's senior year, the 76-77 season. I don't remember the scores anymore but by using scores from various games that year I once calculated that Calvin would have beaten the eventual D1 champion (Al McGuire's Marquette squad) by 24 points. During that season Calvin beat Grand Valley (its best team ever and a Final Four participant in D2); GVSU beat Central Michigan University (led by eventual Cleveland Cavalier, Ben Poquette); CMU beat the University of Detroit and U of D beat Marquette that regular season.

Silly reasoning? Of course it is, but a lot of fun too. Calvin did play a good Pepperdine team that year in Malibu (still the nicest campus setting I've ever seen--how do those kids study anyway?) and lost by 19 to a team that made the D1 tournament. The game was a lot closer than 19 too with Calvin only trailing by 8 or 9 points with 5 minutes left forcing the Waves to call a time out to right the ship (sorry about the bad metaphor). Now that I think about it, bulldogalum sr. is right--Calvin would have won at least two national titles with Veenstra.

[wolverinekeith]

From my perspective, it seems that one of the greatest division 3 players of all time would have led his team to at least 1 National Championship game.   

I'm far from an expert on MIAA basketball history, but the miaa.org web page shows that no MIAA teams were in the national tournament before 1978.  Considering Veenstra played from 74-77, that would have made it tough for him to lead Calvin to the National Chamionship game.

BTW, did the MIAA just not participate in the national tournament before 1978?

My dad was a student at Calvin during the Mark Veenstra years.  You are correct in saying that Calvin did not participate in the tournaments back then, although I'm not sure if it was an MIAA thing or if it was a choice of Calvin's (maybe having to do with Sunday games?  Remember, this was back when Chapel attendence was required at Calvin).   

My dad always speculated that Veenstra could have led Calvin very deep in the national tourneys, although that probably has a large bit of homer-ism in that.