MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Gregory Sager]

Apparently I hit a nerve with Greg Sager who seemed to miss what I thought was an obvious tongue-in-cheek comment by referencing bulldogalum sr. (who actually is hopealum).

I didn't get the bulldogalum, sr. in-joke. As I said in my post, I sensed that you were not entirely serious with your argument. Give me credit for at least guessing that your tongue was somewhere in the vicinity of your cheek.

I guess I need to make more liberal use of the emoticons Pat has provided us. But having been born and raised CRC being liberal about anything is a real challenge for me. So how's this Greg?

Are you trying to induce epileptic seizures or something? I had to snip off the end of your quote because I couldn't bear the thought of looking at all of those tiny rolling eyes again.

I hate emoticons, but I've come to realize that I have to learn how to live with them. Message-board posts and e-mails are supposed to be a substitute for face-to-face conversation, but they convey none of the necessary vocal nuance, facial expression, or body language. So I've learned to live with salting my posts with those dopey little yellow faces, or else risk making people even angrier than I normally make them. Plus, I actively try to network whenever I'm at a game that includes Hope and/or Calvin, so that MIAA people don't think I'm such an ogre in real life.

There is one common link that might be made however that I think at least gives some validity to the quality of play in the MIAA at that time. Calvin won four consecutive MIAA titles during the Veenstra era but over his final three years, Calvin struggled with a young and talented Albion team that was under the direction of  youthful head coach Mike Turner. During Veenstra's final two years (1976 and 1977), Calvin split its regular season series with Albion and needed a Hope upset win over Albion at the Holland Civic Center in the 1977 regular season finale to win the outright league title. Calvin's lone win over Albion in 1976 was a 75-74 decision and its 1977 win over Albion came by a 94-90 score. Albion was paced back then by future Eastern Michigan head coach Milton Barnes and eventual two-time MIAA MVP John Nibert. The year after the Veenstra era had ended (1977-78), the MIAA ban on post-season play was over and Albion in the first year of post-season eligibility, went all the way to the NCAA III Final Four, lost to the vaunted North Park team 75-69 in the semifinals and won the consolation game over Stony Brook of New York 87-78 for a third place national finish. Perhaps that Albion group was a cinderella team that overachieved. I don't know. But my guess is that the 1978 Albion team was pretty good. I think Greg might have been at the 1978 Final Four as a student so perhaps he could shed some light on Albion's team back then or perhaps Old Knight could do so. I can't say much since I didn't see them play as I was only eight years old.

The 1979-80 leg of North Park's threepeat was my freshman year, so I never saw that '78 Final Four game between the Vikings and the Britons. The person to ask about that '78 Albion team from an NPU perspective would be former North Park and CCIW SID (and perennial CCIW Chat gadfly) Dennis Prikkel, whose knowledge of the Vikings' threepeat era is fairly encyclopedic. But John Nibert made the All-Tournament team in 1978, so he must've personally had a good run in taking Albion to the Final Four.

I noticed on the Albion website that Milton Barnes is now a scout for the Washington Wizards.

Good posts, Jeff.

[Knightmare]

Steve Bell announced that a Jimmy Strunk from East Kentwood, grad yr. '06, will be coming to Calvin after a post-grad yr. playing.

Seems to be an intriguing recruit based on the following site links.

http://www.mlive.com/weblogs/print.ssf?/mtlogs/mlive_hsbasketball/archives/print147181.html

Listed at #79 overall and considering a Matt Veltema is listed at #96, maybe this kid could be a contributor.  Also here is the link to S. Bell's announcment.

http://www.mlive.com/weblogs/hsbasketball/

Anyone have any other info or insight on this player and his potential impact and role.

Keep enjoying the summer, basketball is right around the corner.  Also love all the discussion and debate (respectively done) about All-time players, very interesting reading.

[sac]

#3   2001 Calvin

23-5, 10-2   MIAA Champion, MIAA Tournament Champion, Final D3hoops ranking # 12


No starting 5 available

Bryan Foltice, Nate Burgess, Rob Holleman, Derek Kleinheksel, Jon Potvin, Chris Prins, Josh Tubergan, Jeremy Veenstra



Calvin began 2001 as the defending National Champions and pre-season # 1 by D3hoops.com.  The Knights began the season with 3 straight double-digit wins and a 4 point win over  Cornerstone in the Hall of Fame Classic.  Calvin pulled out an OT win over Wheaton before dropping their first game of the young season at Spring Arbor 73-72.  Despite a sickness depleted lineup the Knights lost their #1 ranking and slipped to #4.  Three more wins followed over Grand Rapids rivals Cornerstone, Grace Bible and Aquinas.

At a tournament in Wooster, Ohio a rare top 10 matchup with #8 ranked Chicago gave Calvin its second loss in a close one 73-71.  Chicago would finish 2001 at #6, one game shy of a trip to Salem.  A win over Carnegie-Mellon in the consolation game put Calvin at 9-2 and heavy favorites to win a 2nd consecutive outright title and 3rd in a row.

Calvin was 12-2 and ranked #4 when they ran into a game Albion team who upset the Knights 77-68 in Grand Rapids.  It was a shocker and put pressure on the Knights with Hope coming to the Fieldhouse in just 3 days time.  Despite Hope's overall record of just 11-5, it was the Dutchmen in 1st place in the MIAA at 4-0.  Calvin would win the horse race 95-85 regaining a share of the MIAA lead.  Two more comfortable wins put Calvin at 15-3 ranked #5.

Kalamazoo has always been a tough road trip for the Knights and 2001 proved to be no different as the struggling Hornets pulled off the 79-65 upset.  The second meeting with Albion saw the Knights 1 game up of the Brits and tied with Hope at the top of the MIAA.  Calvin prevailed in a tough 86-78 road win, while Hope lost to Olivet.  Calvin was now alone atop the MIAA.

The second meeting with Hope turned out to be the game of the MIAA season.  Hope needed a win to potentially grab a share of the MIAA Championship.  A raucus crowd in the Holland Civic Center willed the Dutchmen to a late lead.  Late Calvin heroics sent the game to overtime, where Calvin would prevail 84-82 as a last second shot by Hope was ruled late.  The Knights had won the MIAA Championship.

The MIAA Tournament was a wild one with 6th seeded Adrian pulling off two stunners, a 73-71 OT win at Albion, then dispatching of the Dutchmen in OT 94-88 in the Semi-Finals.  The Knights would cruise to easy wins over Olivet and Adrian to capture a second straight MIAA Tournament Championship and an invite to defend their National Championship.

Calvin entered the tournament ranked # 6 at 22-4.  Round one would ironically pit Calvin against Defiance, who had left the MIAA the previous year and had won the Hearland Conference Tournament in their first season.  Calvin would win by 11 to advance to a titanic second round matchup with # 3 ranked Ohio Northern at 24-2 on a long winning streak.  The Polar Bears proved to be just a bit better and won 79-68 in Ada, Ohio.


Notes:    Kind of a forgotten team but this version of the Knights was pretty tough.  Despite losing Winkle and Karsten to graduation, 2001 returned a big chunk of their 2000 Championship team and rightly were the overwhelming favorite to win the MIAA.  Despite the MIAA being a bit more of a challenge because of the upset losses to Albion and Kzoo, Calvin still won the games they needed to win the title.  They'd rank higher had they pulled out either of their close losses to Top 10's Chicago and Ohio Northern.  Their upset losses to Kalamazoo and Albion were head scratchers as neither of those two teams were particularly special.

The second round matchup with Ohio Northern is a classic example of the difficulties facing Great Lakes Region teams, how many other top 10 matchups occurred in round 2 ?   That was a Sectional matchup at worst.  Ohio Northern went on to the Final Four where they would finish 4th.  Given their 2nd round opponent the final ranking of #12 seems harsh, as it was their lowest of the season after spending all but one poll in the top 10 and 9 polls in the top 5.

Jeremy Veenstra's Sophomore season was terrific by any measurement and even in just his 2nd year in the league he was clearly the best player.  He averaged 22.5 point and nearly 9 rebounds in the MIAA, you could make a strong case that this was his best season in Maroon and Gold.

[sac]

# 2  2003 Hope

23-5, 10-2  MIAA Co-Champion, MIAA Tournament Champion, Final D3hoops ranking # 13

Most used starting 5

G  Greg Immink
G  Chad Carlson
C  Don Overbeek
F  Jeff Carlson
F  Kyle Kleersnyder

Bench:  Andy Phillips,  Matt Taylor, Travis Spaman,  Mike VanHekken, Charlie Kleinheksel,  Jason Mejeur,


Hope took its # 12 pre-season ranking to Northwestern, Iowa to start the season where they would beat the future NAIA II Champions 82-79.  A win over Trinity Christian gave Hope a succesfull trip at 2-0.  The annual Thanksgiving tournament in Grand Rapids pitted Hope against highly regarded Cornerstone, the Eagles would go on to the NAIA II Semi Finals where they would lose to Northwestern, IA.  Hope won this encounter 80-69.  Hope would put perhaps its best effort of the season into a shocking 103-80 win over Division II Grand Valley State in the Championship takeing home the the Hall of Fame trophy for the first time in 5 seasons.

Hope cruised to easy wins over Trinity Christian and St.Mary's before hitting their first speedbump a surprising 13 point loss at Aquinas.  Two more win put Hope at 8-1 and heading to Chicago for a game with the Maroons and an impressive 84-66 victory.  A snowbird trip to Florida matched Hope against 2 more NAIA opponents Edward Waters, a 63-54 win, and Warner Southern, an 87-69 loss.  Warner Southern was the 3rd NAIA II Quarterfinal opponent of the 2005 season. 

Hope shook off the sluggishness of their Florida travel by surviving Adrian 64-59 in the MIAA opener.  A 50 point mauling of Alma gave Hope confindence heading into the first Calvin meeting of the season in Grand Rapids.  At 7-6 and already saddled with an MIAA loss the Knights were desperate to protect the home court.   Led by Veenstra's 25 and a steller 13-21 from 3 performance the Knights prevailed 74-40.

At 3-0 and already a win over Calvin on the board, Albion was the surprise leader of the MIAA and now Hope was coming to Kresge.  Now the Dutchmen were the team desperate for a victory.  In a typically hard fought defensive battle that characterized Albion/Hope matchups of these years, Hope would win 57-52.

The win over Albion had restored confidence, Hope followed that up with a 9 point 99-90 win over Olivet.  One of the strangest games in Hope history followed when Kalamazoo came to the Holland  Civic Center.  The Hornets were just a game back and were coming off a 2OT upset of Albion.  Hope ran out to a comfortable 46-25 halftime lead, it was the 2nd half 54-10 performance that left the 2700 in attendance stunned.  Hope had won 100-35 in the most lopsided victory in decades.  Truly a night when one team couldn't miss, and the other couldn't make anything.

It would be hard to argue against that game being a turning point, Hope would roll off 3 straight dominating wins by 16, 19 and 16.  The last over their rival Calvin in one of the best first half performances by a Hope team in the rivalry leading 48-28.  At 17-3 Hope had matched its highest ranking of the season at # 8.  However there was still one more twist awaiting the Dutchmen.

On February 15, just 1 week before the end of the MIAA season the # 23 ranked Albion Britons came to Holland and pulled off one of finest and most satisfying wins in Mike Turners career.  Led by Michael Thomas' 18 and a career high 18 from Joe Finland.  Albion walked out of Holland with a 69-65 win, a win that would ultimately give them a share of the MIAA Championship for the first time since 1981.

Hope would finish the season with wins at Olivet and Kalamazoo to grab their share of the MIAA Championship and putting an end to Calvin's 3 year grip on the MIAA.  The MIAA Tournament would be hosted by Albion, and the semi-final pitted Hope and rival Calvin.  A near sellout witnessed a great battle as Hope prevailed 82-81 in OT as Jeremy Veenstra scored 29 and league MVP Don Overbeek scored 28.

The following night Hope would beat their fellow co-champs Albion, 61-48 to earn the MIAA automatic bid winning their 2nd straight MIAA Tournament Championship.  It was the first time in 6 years Hope captured both the regular and post-season Championships.

The NCAA tournament gave Hope a top seed and bye in round one.  In round two the # 9 ranked Dutchmen faced the #15 UW-Oshkosh Titans in Holland at the Dow Center.  Oshkosh would shoot 61% en route to a 84-77 victory, led by Tim Dworak's 39 point perfromance.   Oshkosh would go on to lose in the Quarterfinals to Hampden-Sydney.


Notes:    Another really good MIAA team that was delt a tough draw in Round 2.  It was a strange year for the Great Lakes with only 4 teams making the tournament.  Hope was paired in a bracket with 4 Midwest teams, a West team, and 6 teams from the South.  Oshkosh was probably the toughest of the first round winners they could have faced.

This was another really good 3 point shooting team with the Carlson's  leading the way.  You can only wonder what it might have been like if Daane Griffith had played the full season, since he was regarded as Hope's best 3 point shooter in his four years.  I had also forgotten about how deep this team was going a legitimate 11 players deep.

I'm sure this team will be met with some huh's and what's but the 2003 team played a tougher schedule than given credit for as noted, had an excellent inside, outside game and were capable of playing some pretty good defense.  They rank as high as they possibly could I feel, and although they didn't go far in the NCAA's it was still one of Hope's best teams in the past decade.

Don Overbeek was the MVP in 03, which was the culmination of a long four year journey of steady improvement.  Very few could have predicted a league MVP for Don his freshman year, with  Jeremy Veenstra in the league.

[GoKnights68]

Well I got to be the first one to complain about putting 2006 Albion in the top 10 and completely leaving 2006 Calvin out of there.  I know the '06 Knights weren't the most talented team, but we all know that doesn't tell everything in sports about what they accomplished.  The 2006 Knights won the league outright with only one loss, and that's tough to do in any year.  Even good Calvin teams like the 2001 Knights couldn't do that.

2006 Albion, sure they had a really nice first half and upset Hope the first time, but they showed that they weren't at Calvin and Hope's level as Calvin beat them both times they played each other, and Hope beat them pretty easily in the miaa tourney.  They really fell off the map at the end of the year, while Calvin just continued to know how to win and close out games led by the senior combo of Draayer/Trewella and many hard-working freshmen.  I guess I don't know how much you factor in points scored per game, but I'd really like to hear why you would think 2006 Albion is a better team than 2006 Calvin.

[sac]

I'd really like to hear why you would think 2006 Albion is a better team than 2006 Calvin.

First, lets remember this isn't my opinion, but a statistical computer program.

This is the one team I knew I'd have to answer for and two things work against the 2006 Knights.

First---Overall the 2006 Knights rank as the #10 Calvin team of the past 10 years and #10 offensively.  More than a few Calvin posters have commented that the offense hasn't seemed that good for the past couple years and quite frankly the numbers don't lie.  Not only is 2006 ranked #10 but 2007 is ranked #9 for Calvin offensive teams.


Second---We look at the whole season, not just the last 4 weeks.  If we ranked just the last 4 weeks I have no doubt this Calvin team would be in the top 10.  But from November through the first 5 games of the MIAA season Calvin was pretty ordinary.  Calvin suffered 5 losses before that 5th MIAA contest.  In those they lost by 14, 8, 15, 7, 18 throw in four games in the first 5 MIAA contests where Calvin won in OT by 6 , by 4, 2 and 3.  Calvin was a couple bounces or breaks for the opponents from being 1-4 to start the MIAA season.  The first 17 games are what hold the 2006 Knights back.


A few things that go into the ratings, offensive stats such as points, rebounds, shooting percentages, assists, steals, blocks.  Defensively its points allowed, rebounds and opponents shooting percentage.  A component is also overall winning percentage.   If you look at the overall stats Albion outranked Calvin in a number of categories but not average points scored.  Rebounding is a pretty big component and  Albion dusted Calvin in that category.  Calvin was just not as efficient on offense as Albion, and defensively Albion 2006 ranks #2 in the MIAA over these 10 years, Calvin was good but not nearly as good as Albion's rating.

I look at the 2006 team as a cinderella who probably accomplished much more than they should have. Its not unusual, Hope's #8 overall team won a piece of the 1999 MIAA Championship, there are 26 teams that rate higher from the MIAA in this time frame.   There are 22 teams that rate ahead of the 2006 Knights.

Also,  don't forget that if we had the smaller NCAA field as we did for much of this past decade its doubtfull the 2006 Knights would have been in that field. 

[hope1]

i can not wait to see who is number 1 team on sac list

[bulldogalum]

i can not wait to see who is number 1 team on sac list

If the dew crew somehow comes out as the #1 team on sac's list, I'm going to be angry.

[ziggy]

# 2  2003 Hope
Hope shook off the sluggishness of their Florida travel by surviving Adrian 64-59 in the MIAA opener.  A 50 point mauling of Alma gave Hope confindence heading into the first Calvin meeting of the season in Grand Rapids.  At 7-6 and already saddled with an MIAA loss the Knights were desperate to protect the home court.   Led by Veenstra's 25 and a steller 13-21 from 3 performance the Knights prevailed 74-40.

That's even better than I remember! 

[Flying Dutch Fan]

# 2  2003 Hope
Hope shook off the sluggishness of their Florida travel by surviving Adrian 64-59 in the MIAA opener.  A 50 point mauling of Alma gave Hope confindence heading into the first Calvin meeting of the season in Grand Rapids.  At 7-6 and already saddled with an MIAA loss the Knights were desperate to protect the home court.   Led by Veenstra's 25 and a steller 13-21 from 3 performance the Knights prevailed 74-40.

That's even better than I remember! 

74-70 .... 74-40...

Both feel the same   

[bionbrit]

Hope had won 100-35 in the most lopsided victory in decades.  Truly a night when one team couldn't miss, and the other couldn't make anything.

I remember being at the Albion game when this score was announced I remember people looking at each other saying that has to be a women's score. That was K-Zoo's best team in years led by the brothers from across the pond.

he MIAA Tournament would be hosted by Albion, and the semi-final pitted Hope and rival Calvin.  A near sellout witnessed a great battle as Hope prevailed 82-81 in OT as Jeremy Veenstra scored 29 and league MVP Don Overbeek scored 28.

This game made me really appreciate the rivalry. Jeremy Veenstra took over! If he had just a little help from his teamates or the refs (he got hammered on the last play) they would have been playing Albion the next night. Calvin fans didn't Veenstra need emergency surgery on his eye the next day or is that just a rumor?


I don't know if people or Sac's computer will agree with me or not but I think 2003 was one of the best if not the best year as far as depth went. Take out Alma and all of the other 6 teams were pretty good. Adrian had Brooks and Walters. They were 1 and 2 in the league in scoring.  Had Schafer not gotten hurt that year how good would they have been? Despite their one bad day in Holland and it is easily the best K team in years. They had 7 seniors one of Albion 2 L's in the league came @ K  and I've always felt that Dirk Rehinardt is the most underated guard in the MIAA sense the turn of the century. Don't forget Calvin led by Jeremy Veinstra went 7-5 in the league.

This senior class had
C. Carlson
D. Overbeek
B. Qualye
D. Rehinardt
D. Walters
S. Brooks
J. Veenstra 

I would take that team and roll into any D2 gym and some D1's

[bionbrit]

sorry still haven't figured out how to do the cut and paste and it show who's post I took it from.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

sorry still haven't figured out how to do the cut and paste and it show who's post I took it from.

No problem - just click the Quote button on the post you want to quote, and it will insert it into a new post - then you just need to add your comments below.

[GoKnights68]

I'd really like to hear why you would think 2006 Albion is a better team than 2006 Calvin.

First, lets remember this isn't my opinion, but a statistical computer program.

This is the one team I knew I'd have to answer for and two things work against the 2006 Knights.

First---Overall the 2006 Knights rank as the #10 Calvin team of the past 10 years and #10 offensively.  More than a few Calvin posters have commented that the offense hasn't seemed that good for the past couple years and quite frankly the numbers don't lie.  Not only is 2006 ranked #10 but 2007 is ranked #9 for Calvin offensive teams.


Second---We look at the whole season, not just the last 4 weeks.  If we ranked just the last 4 weeks I have no doubt this Calvin team would be in the top 10.  But from November through the first 5 games of the MIAA season Calvin was pretty ordinary.  Calvin suffered 5 losses before that 5th MIAA contest.  In those they lost by 14, 8, 15, 7, 18 throw in four games in the first 5 MIAA contests where Calvin won in OT by 6 , by 4, 2 and 3.  Calvin was a couple bounces or breaks for the opponents from being 1-4 to start the MIAA season.  The first 17 games are what hold the 2006 Knights back.


A few things that go into the ratings, offensive stats such as points, rebounds, shooting percentages, assists, steals, blocks.  Defensively its points allowed, rebounds and opponents shooting percentage.  A component is also overall winning percentage.   If you look at the overall stats Albion outranked Calvin in a number of categories but not average points scored.  Rebounding is a pretty big component and  Albion dusted Calvin in that category.  Calvin was just not as efficient on offense as Albion, and defensively Albion 2006 ranks #2 in the MIAA over these 10 years, Calvin was good but not nearly as good as Albion's rating.

I look at the 2006 team as a cinderella who probably accomplished much more than they should have. Its not unusual, Hope's #8 overall team won a piece of the 1999 MIAA Championship, there are 26 teams that rate higher from the MIAA in this time frame.   There are 22 teams that rate ahead of the 2006 Knights.

Also,  don't forget that if we had the smaller NCAA field as we did for much of this past decade its doubtfull the 2006 Knights would have been in that field. 

Well thanks for the explanation, but I still respectfully disagree.  I guess I should remember that you factored all kinds of stats in there, that seem to block out what the Knights accomplished record-wise.  So I'd have to disagree when just saying that were really good the last 4 weeks.  The MIAA regular season recrod speaks for itself on the season, and I just don't think the pre-conference non-league games should mean nearly as much as the MIAA.  I guess I could somewhat agree that the 2006 Briton were more talented, but Calvin had them beat in every aspect of the season(miaa regular season,  further in miaa tourney, tournament appearence), and Albion just never really improved.  But it's your list

[Pat Coleman]

sorry still haven't figured out how to do the cut and paste and it show who's post I took it from.

No problem - just click the Quote button on the post you want to quote, and it will insert it into a new post - then you just need to add your comments below.

Key, too -- you have to type below the last [/quote] -- otherwise your post could end up inside the quote box.