MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Titan Q]

Once again, John Mantel fails to impress.  He often fails to take advantage of his size, and even when he does, he has shown very little touch.  He was nonexistent in Calvin's loss.  He inability to make progress towards his enormous potential is good for Hope and spells trouble for the Knights. 

I think you're asking a lot of a first-semester sophomore. It takes time for centers especially to develop.

Consider Don Overbeek, who ended up as an All American:

2000: 6.9 pts per game
2001: 11.5
2002: 14.1
2003: 14.6

John Mantel
2007: 7.2
2008: 12.0 so far

Look at Wheaton's Wiele. He was pretty unimpressive until this year, in which he's a junior.

Mantel's definitely making progress, though it may take a while for him to reach his potential.

The development of a low post player takes much longer than that of a perimeter player, simply due to the importance of physical maturity for a big guy.

Here is a photo of Wheaton's Andy Wiele as a freshman, when he was listed at 6-8/215 (and averaged 9.2 ppg and 5.2 rpg)...

http://www.iwuhoops.com/wc2.jpg

And here is a photo from this season as a 6-8/230 beast (and averaging 16.8 ppg and 9.3 rpg)...

http://athletics.wheaton.edu/images/mbball/2007/11/28/wiele2.jpg

 
A perimeter player can make the transition to college basketball much easier than a post player can. 

[pointlem]

Three reflections on the MIAA/CCIW classic:

1) Any time a top 25 team makes 10 of 15 3-point shots (and has one player going 7 for 7---which would be terrific even shooting free throws) even the best of teams is going to have its hands full.  Wheaton obviously was a different team today in many ways, both in shooting and in having its mammoth center back.  (His absence was part of what allowed Hope to trap and pick the pockets of the Wheaton guards.)  If Wheaton were to play Calvin again, they'd have a hard time duplicating today's performance (and if they were to play Hope again, they'd have a hard time duplicating their last night's performance!).

2) Hope was also helped, and I would think any Wheaton opponent would be, by Wheaton's having only three players who shoot and score (except last night this was reduced to two players).  That lack of depth helps enable the trapping defense on Raymond, Wiele, and Panner.

3) Kent Raymond, even with his (record?) 12 turnovers on Friday, was a jaw-dropping pleasure to watch.  It was much like watching Steve Cramer in the post-season last year.  Both were unstoppable players who could create offense unassisted.  Ditto the Wheaton women's point guard, who played all 40 minutes today.  The seldom-seen back up Wheaton point guards must feel like practice sparring partners.

[northb]

I sensed that Calvin never really thought they were going to lose this game.  Maybe that had something to do with the passion early in the game.  The Zoerhof layup with time running down was because Calvin could not get a shot from outside the arc, so he went for it, expecting a chance at a steal or a foul. 

I was surprised Calvin did not try to wear Wheaton out.  They all looked tired early in the game, and were not playing very deep into the bench.  I thought that if they pressed and made Wheaton work harder, they would wear them down and use the much deeper bench to seal the win.  Calvin seemed to have a good game plan, but did not expect the 3 consecutuve threes with just a few minutes left.  That was the turnaround.     

[HopeConvert]

Well, I'm still down in South Bend, and hope the roads will be decent on my return tomorrow. Thanks to all the posters for their observations about this weekend's games. It sounds like great effort on Hope's part in both games. Is it too early to start getting a little excited about this team? I love teams where guys sell out every second they're on the floor (given my minimal talent level, that was my only compensating ability), and this team looks like they really get after it. Great stuff. I hate to have missed the games, but such is life. We're busy down here trying to solve world peace, after all.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Well, I'm still down in South Bend... . We're busy down here trying to solve world peace, after all.

I hope the "scourge of humanity" (i.e. Pat Forde's sarcastic name for Ty Willingham) and his "poor" recruiting classes didn't keep you from solving world peace! But I am sure if you failed Notre Dame fans will find a way to blame it on him, along with everything else that goes wrong there.

[oldknight]

One additional comment from Calvin's loss today. Veldhouse has quietly become a very improved defensive player since his freshmen year. When Caleb first arrived at Knollcrest he treated defense as time off from playing offense and he incurred the wrath of KVS on more than one occasion for displaying that attitude. I thought Veldhouse's defense on Kent Raymond--one of the best guards in D3--was outstanding today. Raymond scored 20 but only shot 6-19 primarily because Caleb was in his grille on every attempt. Raymond also had the advantage of playing the entire game (39 minutes) to score his points while Veldhouse shot 6-14 in his 32 minutes of play. Caleb also came up with 3 steals.

Once again, John Mantel fails to impress.  He often fails to take advantage of his size, and even when he does, he has shown very little touch.  He was nonexistent in Calvin's loss.  He inability to make progress towards his enormous potential is good for Hope and spells trouble for the Knights. 

I don't think those are fair comments. After some early turnover problems I thought Mantel competed quite well against Wheaton's bruising big man. John basically played Wiele even in points (10 to 9) although Wiele did assert himself more on the boards by getting 17. Wiele did play 9 more minutes than did Mantel which helps the stat line. He needs to continue working on his footwork and assertiveness but John's play today can hardly be described as "nonexistant." These lessons against quality big men are great preparation for league play. I don't think MIAA opponents should be licking their chops at the sight of Mantel in the post.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Well, I'm still down in South Bend... . We're busy down here trying to solve world peace, after all.

I hope the "scourge of humanity" (i.e. Pat Forde's sarcastic name for Ty Willingham) and his "poor" recruiting classes didn't keep you from solving world peace! But I am sure if you failed Notre Dame fans will find a way to blame it on him, along with everything else that goes wrong there.

Actually, I think most of them have moved on to blaming Charlie Weis now!

If they ever get to blaming 'Touchdown Jesus' you will know that the Notre Dame mystique has run its course.

[Knight In The Stan]

I dont even know what to say. This team is so talented but seems weak in the head. And they have another tough one this week to bounce back to. Looks like the captains are going to have to dig deep and get the team fired up and back to basics.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Having beaten WashU (back when they had Sean Wallis), I wouldn't worry too much about Calvin.  My early-season impression of Wheaton is that they can beat (and lose to) nearly anyone in the country.  Depending on how they develop (both overall and game-to-game) neither 6th in the CCIW or a date in Salem would shock me.  But I would be surprised (at least mildly) if Calvin didn't make the post-season.

[sac]

I've been reluctant to post my early opinion on Calvin, mostly because I've only seen parts of 2 games(to much talking).  But the Calvin team I've seen so far this year reminds me of the one I saw last  December in its development.  With that said though they are much further along than last season where at this point they were 3-3 with only a win over Aquinas that could be counted as quality.  In their 3 losses they were blown out comfortably by Hope and Carthage, and handled by Wheaton.

This year they're 4-2 with a 2OT loss to an unbeaten Aquinas, and 1 point loss to Wheaton.  Hardly the stuff to be really down about.  I just think Calvin is trying to define the frontline, losing DeVries, Snoeyink and Meckes to graduation is still tough to replace.  I just think most of us took it for granted because Calvin has so many able bodies to replace them.  Its been clear watching the chemistry isn't quite there, that will come.  The other most obviously noticeable aspect as others have pointed out has been the lack of emotion.  I only saw that from Calvin last year when they played Hope, but of course I only saw a half dozen + games.  This actually seems to be a recurring problem from past KVS radio interviews after games.

Offensively they're stuttering sometimes, but they've played 4 games in a row with argueably the best player (Griffin) hobbling with an ankle injury.  When Griffin is on, Calvin's on.  Griffin and Veldhouse will carry this team, everyone else just needs to chip in here and there.  Once the low post game comes around, everything should be fine.  Calvin has a good shot at being 8-2 heading into the MIAA season, anything less than 7-3 and there might be a problem.

Remarkably of course the loss to  Wheaton does nothing to harm NCAA selection or seeding, as its an invisible game in the in-region category.  They have the look of a potential MIAA Champion though.

[sac]

John Mantel I think is in the unfortunate position of haveing to deal with unreal expectations.     That often happens in the Calvin/Hope fan base, particularly when the player picks one over the other, or are being recruited by both.  Maybe thats just my perception or its real, I don't hang with the Calvin set much, but its how I'm perceiving some comments over the past year or so.   I think both groups of fans can become a bit overzealous with their expectations.

Inevitably at Calvin, the fans start dreaming of the the next Mark Veenstra, Steve Honderd, Aaron Winkle, Jeremy Veenstra.  Mantel is going to be a very good D3 basketball player but I don't think he's on the same level as those guys were, certainly not yet. 

It think Northb pointed out his point avg's compared to Hope's Overbeek, and if he mirrors that path, I think Calvin fans will be really happy.  The only thing I've seen is maybe a little bit of pressing and trying to make to difficult a shot.  Thats just part of the learning process.  I think Mantel will be fine once he learns to relax and let the game happen more.  I don't think its realistic to expect 17 and 9 from him every night, not with Griffin and Veldhouse and the quickly emerging Englesma sharing the floor.

For the 5th year in a row I'm watching my Hope team play without a true center (only Voisin comes close, and he really wasn't)  They've done remarkably well without one, but I sure wish Hope could pound the ball down low on occassion.  Thats a huge luxury and weapon that Calvin has with Mantel, and its just going to get better.  We get our share of low post hoops, but 6-5 posting up isn't the same as 6-8, for sure.  Basketball life is much better when that option exists.

[GoKnights68]

Pretty ugly game for Calvin today.  Way too many turnovers all around.  I was questioning the line-up that KVS put out on the floor many times tonight, but I guess that's common for Calvin at this early in the season.  Mantel will be alright, but I still think he needed to post up under the basket more often, and then go hard to the basket.  The same could be said for Tim Katt.  Looking forward to when Griffin is 100% healthy again...

I feel that a number of players just need to hit their stride/"coming out" game, and Calvin should be alright.  Like sac said, Calvin didn't look to hot last year(or the year before I might add) and they finished the season pretty strong, with winning the league in '06 and winning the league tourney in '07(last season).  Although a bunch of fans, including me, were getting kind of frustrated with KVS at times today, I think we just need to trust in him because his system might produce some ugly games this early in the season, but Calvin usually hits their stride big-time towards the end.  Lets hope they hit their stride starting with their first conference game at least.

And I better not even start babbling about how poorly Calvin's offense was run once again.  Move without the ball!

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Some thoughts from the weekend:

- Hope seems to be team that has the ability to go on some pretty impressive defensive runs - which fuelthe offense.  The intensity on D is the first place to lok when things aren't going well.

- The balanced scoring from the Dutchment makes them a tough team to play.  Through 4 games, there are 6 players averaging 8 points or more per game (the 5 starters + Tanis).  Any one of those guys could go for 20 quite easily.  After seeing Wheaton (in both games) you can see how the lack of that balance will be a hurdle throughout the year.

- My thoughts on Calvin are similar to the last few posts.  They will continue to be a tought team to play, and I expect will be a fine form for the conference season.  CM commented to me yesterday that they seem to lack some team chemistry, and I agree completely - but that will come.

- It is a bit comical to hear a Calvin point guard yell "motion", pass the ball, and then just stand there... 

[PicknRoll]

Some interesting games over the weekend....

I was not at the chicago - kzoo game, but after seeing the box score I couldn't help to be disapointed. Lots of turnovers, not many assists, and low % shooting. Thats certainly not a winning formula for basketball, which shows in our record. I am hoping some K fans, or any other postercan give a synopsis of the game?

Just some things that stood out big time for me at looking box scores, and I read some discussion on them already

1. Kent Raymond with 12 turnovers as Hope blows out Wheaton. For a guy that is supposed to be an all american theres no excuse for that, I don't care how good of defense you play on him.

2. 7-7 trey balls for the guy from Wheaton to upset Calvin by 1...are you kidding me? Thats lights out! Was he wide open or just on fire hitting tough shots, or both?

I am sure like several posters I am pretty surprised that Wheaton beat Calvin!

I also think a big ten/ACC challenge type thing would be a great addition to the MIAA preseason.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

I mentioned this in a post on my initial thoughts from yesterday's game but with in game updates for the Calvin-Wheaton game I think it got lost in the shuffle so I want to bring it up again and see what those at the game thought.

The stat that stood out to me more than any yesterday is that DVS and Carter, our first two PGs, combined for a grand total of 1 assist! I realize Hope still won and there is no doubt DVS contributed some nice shooting yesterday but 1 assist from your PG position is not the way you win over the course of the year. Any thoughts? Would I have felt less troubled if I had seen the game rather than listened to the internet feed?