MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

Just to put a bow on the MIAA/CCIW challenge.

Overall the series now stands at 8-8, both conferences have gone 7-1 on their "home floor".  Calvin became the first team to lose a real home game.

Hope vs Wheaton 2-2
Hope vs Carthage 2-2

Calvin vs Wheaton 1-3
Calvin vs Carthage 3-1

Next year, I believe we return to King Arena at Wheaton.


Just a sidenote, I've been sort of disappointed with the attendance in this series, but none more than this past Friday.  I honestly think thats the fewest number of Hope fans to ever make the trip to Calvin for a game.  The boxscore says 1500, but I would guess it was half that for most of the game.
---------------------------------------------

Overall the MIAA improves to 19-20 , last year at this time 12-24

Another light week ahead, but it looks promising to get above .500, if Hope and Calvin get their Aquinas revenge.
Tuesday, Dec. 4
Alma at Madonna, 7:30 p.m.
Calvin at Aquinas, 7:30 p.m.

Wednesday, Dec. 5
Tri-State at North Park, Ill., 7:30 p.m.

Thursday, Dec. 6
Siena Heights at Adrian, tba

Fri.-Sat., Dec. 7-8
Hope hosts Holland Sentinel Community Tournament (10)
Friday: vs Marygrove
Saturday: vs Aquinas or Trinity International

Saturday, Dec. 8
Tri-State at Davenport, 3 p.m.

[Stinger]

Overall the MIAA improves to 19-20 , last year at this time 12-24

The Hornets obviously haven't helped that number at 0-5 on the season. One can only look at their season statistics to figure out why. The Hornets are shooting 35% from the field, 26% from 3 point range. Their oppnonents are 49% from the field, 41% from 3 point trange. K is getting out rebounded by 7+ a game and are turning the ball over at 18/game.  Not pretty.

This week is finals week at K.  I'm sure the guys have a lot on their minds right now.  It's imperative that they take advantage of the 10 days away from game play to try and get better. 

[ChicagoHopeNut]

D3Hoops.com Top 25 voter here with a ballot due today.  I would like your input...

Who should be rated higher this week, Hope or Calvin? I'm not necessarily looking for which team is expected to be the best by late January, but rather which is the best team today.

Also, projecting each team at its best, how would you slot Wheaton on a ballot vs Hope and Calvin (Who is 1, 2, and 3?)

Your unbiased analysis is appreciated.

My name gives away my allegiances but I do think Hope should be ranked higher than Calvin.

Both teams lost to Aquinas over Thanksgiving weekend. Hope lost to Aquinas in OT after blowing a late lead. Calvin lost in double OT but both games were close.

This weekend when Hope and Calvin faced the same teams Hope went 2-0 while Calvin was 1-1. The outcomes against Carthage were the same while Hope blew Wheaton out of the gym (albeit without Wiele) and Calvin lost by one at home to a full strength Wheaton team. Today, Hope has a more consistent frontline. I think the guard play on both teams is even right now. Moreover, I think Hope has the deeper bench.

EDIT: Incorrect information on Calvin loss to Aquinas. I adjusted the original sentence to reflect sac's correction.
I still stand by my theory that today Hope should be ranked higher than Calvin. Maybe not in February but today.

[sac]

Both teams lost to Aquinas over Thanksgiving weekend. Hope lost to Aquinas in OT after blowing a late lead. Calvin lost in regulation but both games were close.

Calvin's loss to Aquinas was in double-overtime.

[realist]

Hope at this point deserves a higher ranking than Calvin.
OK:  Go to the
Calvin site, and look at the ytd stats.  If Zoerhof is a better player why isn't he starting?  His time played is higher than several starters, but his rebounds, and points don't justify the minutes.  The same point also is very clear on Smith.  His rebounds etc. don't justify his playing time.  How does playing Smith improve the frontline?
For Mantel, Engelsma to get better they have to be on the floor.
Why aren't Griffin, Veldhouse, and Smith impacted by all the issues you claim are plaquing the frontline players?
This is the last I will post on the subject.  Time will tell if KVS is right. but W's are the baseline not "building" players for some unknown time in the future.  IMHO the AQ and Wheaton losses are NOT all the players fault!

[realist]

Sac:
I know it was a (rhetorical) ?, but perhaps Coach Bosko D wanted his 5 best players (the starters) to build some stamina, and play, and learn some lessons from the talented Hope players. 

[goodknight]

I've seen all six Calvin games, and good portions of three Hope games.
I'd pay serious money to watch the Calvin team that beat Wash U strap it on against the Hope team that took apart Wheaton.
This week, I'd rank Hope above Calvin based entirely on the Dutchmen's excellent defensive efforts against Wheaton and Cornerstone (didn't see a bit of the Hope-Carthage game), while the Knights are is still tinkering with  rotations and not always appearing to communicate well, especially on the defensive end.
Karma to oldknight for taking the long view.   8)

[Dark Knight]

It's pretty clear that Hope should have a higher ranking that Calvin at this point.

I'd actually give Calvin the edge over Wheaton, considering both teams on average. Panner won't usually go 7-7 from 3-point range, and Calvin really played a lackidasical first few minutes, in which they went down 10-2. Calvin was the better team most of the night. (Not to mention that one of Calvin's best players had a bad ankle and limited mobility.)

[HopeConvert]

It's pretty clear that Hope should have a higher ranking that Calvin at this point.

I'd actually give Calvin the edge over Wheaton, considering both teams on average. Panner won't usually go 7-7 from 3-point range, and Calvin really played a lackidasical first few minutes, in which they went down 10-2. Calvin was the better team most of the night. (Not to mention that one of Calvin's best players had a bad ankle and limited mobility.)

Nonetheless, Wheaton beat Calvin on Calvin's home floor. How you can possibly rank Calvin ahead of them if you are rewarding actual performance? If Calvin played lackadaisically, more's the pity. (Not to mention Wiele probably wasn't at 100% either). I mean, I'm rooting for Calvin in that game, and I'd like to see Calvin ranked higher, but it's a rule of thumb in athletics: you reward the teams that won, not the teams that should have won.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

It's pretty clear that Hope should have a higher ranking that Calvin at this point.

I'd actually give Calvin the edge over Wheaton, considering both teams on average. Panner won't usually go 7-7 from 3-point range, and Calvin really played a lackidasical first few minutes, in which they went down 10-2. Calvin was the better team most of the night. (Not to mention that one of Calvin's best players had a bad ankle and limited mobility.)

Nonetheless, Wheaton beat Calvin on Calvin's home floor. How you can possibly rank Calvin ahead of them if you are rewarding actual performance? If Calvin played lackadaisically, more's the pity. (Not to mention Wiele probably wasn't at 100% either). I mean, I'm rooting for Calvin in that game, and I'd like to see Calvin ranked higher, but it's a rule of thumb in athletics: you reward the teams that won, not the teams that should have won.

Here's where this all becomes difficult (and why I'm glad I don't have to do the ranking).  Hope beats Wheaton by 30.  Based on that game, Wheaton is out of the poll.  But then that must mean that Calvin is also out of the poll, since they lost to Wheaton (and maybe Wheaton sneaks back in??), so then Wash U must be further out of the poll, since they lost to Calvin...

Titan Q - my hat off to you to have to endure this on a weekly basis. 

[GoKnights68]

It's pretty clear that Hope should have a higher ranking that Calvin at this point.

I'd actually give Calvin the edge over Wheaton, considering both teams on average. Panner won't usually go 7-7 from 3-point range, and Calvin really played a lackidasical first few minutes, in which they went down 10-2. Calvin was the better team most of the night. (Not to mention that one of Calvin's best players had a bad ankle and limited mobility.)

Nonetheless, Wheaton beat Calvin on Calvin's home floor. How you can possibly rank Calvin ahead of them if you are rewarding actual performance? If Calvin played lackadaisically, more's the pity. (Not to mention Wiele probably wasn't at 100% either). I mean, I'm rooting for Calvin in that game, and I'd like to see Calvin ranked higher, but it's a rule of thumb in athletics: you reward the teams that won, not the teams that should have won.

Perhaps Dark Knight is mainly trying to say that he thinks Calvin is the better team than Wheaton, and that Calvin should be ranked higher in his personal rankings, even though Wheaton could probably make a good case to be ranked higher than Calvin since they did beat Calvin fair and squire and they just played better than Calvin on Saturday, therefore deserved to win.   ...But you just never know with rankings(see BCS  ).  In 2005, Calvin lost to Rochester in the final four first match-up, yet their final ranking was number 2, ahead of Rochester.

And realist, I  think that a lot of fans would agree with you that there's a lot of question marks with KVS's line-ups so far this season that he puts out on the floor at certain times.  Tomorrow's game verses Aquinas will be interesting, and I'm sure Calvin will come out with much better energy than Saturday.

[Pat Coleman]

Where do you find the immediate information about what games are being counted in-region?

http://www.d3hoops.com/faq.php?question=44

Thanks, but I meant the place where it said the NCAA was going to count Carthage but not Roanoke.

From Hope's schedule on D3hoops...........Roanoke doesn't have the little dot Pat uses to signify an in-region opponent.

http://www.d3hoops.com/school/Hope/mens/2008

Unfortunately the schools are the ones who put the little dots in and not all of them managed to do so correctly. We audit the schedules to make changes but it's a painful process with more than 11,000 games in the season.

We're getting there.

[realist]

FDF:  I agree doing the rankings does not sound like anything I would want for a steady diet.  At this point I think Hope should move up several positions, and Wheaton stays just about where they were before, but Calvin drops, and is near the bottom if it survives at all. 

[Dark Knight]

Nonetheless, Wheaton beat Calvin on Calvin's home floor. How you can possibly rank Calvin ahead of them if you are rewarding actual performance? If Calvin played lackadaisically, more's the pity. (Not to mention Wiele probably wasn't at 100% either). I mean, I'm rooting for Calvin in that game, and I'd like to see Calvin ranked higher, but it's a rule of thumb in athletics: you reward the teams that won, not the teams that should have won.

But you give that reward based on all games, not on a single game. Others are certainly entitled to other opinions, but my opinion, based on all the games both teams played, was to give Calvin a slight edge.

If you forget about the Wheaton game, for the moment, you have a team that has played just about even with Hope against common opponents and defeated then-number 1 Wash U.

I don't want to make the case too strongly because I'd rather see Calvin with a lower ranking, frankly.


edit--fixed formattig of quote box

[northb]

FDF:  I agree doing the rankings does not sound like anything I would want for a steady diet.  At this point I think Hope should move up several positions, and Wheaton stays just about where they were before, but Calvin drops, and is near the bottom if it survives at all. 

Wheaton cannot stay where they were before--they lost by 30!  Hope had quality wins against 2 good opponents this week, and should move up.  Calvin lost a close one at home and won by a handful in their other game and should move down a little.  So the ranking should be Hope..then Calvin and then..........Wheaton.