MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[ChicagoHopeNut]

It's pretty clear that Hope should have a higher ranking that Calvin at this point.

I'd actually give Calvin the edge over Wheaton, considering both teams on average. Panner won't usually go 7-7 from 3-point range, and Calvin really played a lackidasical first few minutes, in which they went down 10-2. Calvin was the better team most of the night. (Not to mention that one of Calvin's best players had a bad ankle and limited mobility.)

Nonetheless, Wheaton beat Calvin on Calvin's home floor. How you can possibly rank Calvin ahead of them if you are rewarding actual performance? If Calvin played lackadaisically, more's the pity. should have won.

Here's where this all becomes difficult (and why I'm glad I don't have to do the ranking).  Hope beats Wheaton by 30.  Based on that game, Wheaton is out of the poll.  But then that must mean that Calvin is also out of the poll, since they lost to Wheaton (and maybe Wheaton sneaks back in??), so then Wash U must be further out of the poll, since they lost to Calvin...

With these polls the idea of basing your rankings purely on head to head competition has to go out the window after the first week or two. After that it just becomes such a mess because you get a story of A beat B who lost to C who beat X but lost to A. Then everyone ends up tied ranked 25th.

So that said I think one could still rank Calvin ahead of Wheaton despite the results of this weekend's game based on the total picture of the season so far. I think if you look at Calvin's two losses and Wheaton's one loss plus their respective wins they come out real close. It could go either way.

[sac]

The Hornets obviously haven't helped that number at 0-5 on the season.

11/16/07  at Wheaton............  59-98  L
11/17/07  vs Wittenberg.........  72-80  L
11/20/07  at Grand Valley.......  50-96  L
11/25/07  DEFIANCE..............  69-79  L
12/1/07   at Chicago............  55-75  L

Thats a pretty tough schedule, I'd call it the toughest in the league so far.  They add D2 Northwood next week (which actually could be a win)  The next 5 games might be a better barometer for Kzoo, a few chances for wins definately.

[sac]

Just looking at how the top 25 fared last week, I'd guess this

Hope started #16:  Seven teams ahead of Hope lost this week, 4 to unraked D3 teams, 2 to ranked teams, one to NAIA for their 2nd season loss.   Stevens Point had the best loss (to #20 Whitewater).  Whitewater should move ahead of Hope, Stevens Pt. should not drop behind Hope, this puts Hope in the #10 to #12 range in my estimation.

Calvin started #15:  The two teams immediately in front of them also lost, Elmhurst to UW Oshkosh, and Wooster to Cedarville. 3 teams behind won with much better records  Capital 5-1, Keene St 5-0, Whitewater 4-0, all 3 move ahead.  Calvin Elmhurst and Wooster should drop in tandem.  Calvin should fall in a range from #17 to #21


Wheaton started #22:  Record is 5-1, only loss without a key player, voters shouldn't and probably won't punish Wheaton too much for the 30 point loss.  Beating Calvin was somewhat redeeming.  Six immediate ranked teams in front all won, 2 immediate behind both lost.  Wheaton should remain in the same range of #20 to #23  Even with the win, it might be hard to see them get voted ahead of Calvin.

[oldknight]

What message was Bosko Djurickovic sending to his bench when he left his starters on the floor for the final 3 minutes of a 20 point ball game to face Hope's cleared bench? (rhetorical)


It sounded ugly on the radio and looking back, Hope's final 3 minutes included

1-4 FT shooting (including missing front end of 2 1-1's), 3 turnovers, committing 2 fouls and getting 1 offensive shot.  While Carthage went 4-8 from 3 and outscore Hope 15-4.

Bosko did the same thing Friday night against Calvin. In fact, the ending of each game was identical. Some coaches place as much importance on games played in November and December as those played later in the year. Other coaches ( ) think games played in February and March are more important.

OK:  Go to the Calvin site, and look at the ytd stats.  If Zoerhof is a better player why isn't he starting?  His time played is higher than several starters, but his rebounds, and points don't justify the minutes.  The same point also is very clear on Smith.  His rebounds etc. don't justify his playing time.  How does playing Smith improve the frontline?
For Mantel, Engelsma to get better they have to be on the floor.
Why aren't Griffin, Veldhouse, and Smith impacted by all the issues you claim are plaquing the frontline players?
This is the last I will post on the subject.  Time will tell if KVS is right. but W's are the baseline not "building" players for some unknown time in the future.  IMHO the AQ and Wheaton losses are NOT all the players fault!

Actually, I went to last year's stats and found that after Calvin's first 6 games in 2006-07 their record was 3-3 and that the 3 losses were by a combined total of 53 points. The Knights weren't very competitive in any of those losses.

This year's team is 4-2 after 6 games with the two losses by a total of 3 points--with one of the losses in double OT. Like I wrote earlier, let's take the long view and cut the players--and KVS--some slack.

[SKOT]

Just to add to the confusion, D3hoops has Carthage as in-region for Calvin.
Roanoke is not in-region for Hope.

D3hoops lists Wheaton as in region for Calvin but Carthage as out-of-region.

Microsoft MapPoint (the NCAA's official map program) list Calvin to Wheaton as 201.7 miles using the shortest distance.

Not if Calvin would take the ferry and travel to Wheaton that way. Then it would be about 140 miles, according to MapPoint.

Also, if you run the MapPoint software, asking for shortest route from Calvin to Carthage it suggests that you take the ferry. If you run it from Carthage to Calvin, it sends you around the lake. Meanwhile, it suggests the ferry both ways if you are traveling between Hope and Carthage. A dead horse, I know, but it may come up again as an issue, and I hope at some point reason rules the day on this, particularly given the unreliability (inconsistency of results) of MapPoint. NCAA - are you listening?

To continue to beat a dead horse...they shouldn't be allowed to calculate the shortest distance using the ferry.  It runs from the end of April through the end of September (almost the opposite of college basketball season).  Why should anyone be allowed to calculate using the shortest distance if it is never feasible during competition season?

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Actually, the ferry is not involved in making Hope/Carthage in region.  If you use the backroads, and basically hug the lakeshore all the way, it is less than 200 miles.  It might take you six hours, but it is less than 200 miles.

The other option is to get ahold of that horse before he dies, and ride him around the lake.  That would be even less miles (did I just asy Les Miles)   

[Stinger]

The Hornets obviously haven't helped that number at 0-5 on the season.

11/16/07  at Wheaton............  59-98  L
11/17/07  vs Wittenberg.........  72-80  L
11/20/07  at Grand Valley.......  50-96  L
11/25/07  DEFIANCE..............  69-79  L
12/1/07   at Chicago............  55-75  L

Thats a pretty tough schedule, I'd call it the toughest in the league so far.  They add D2 Northwood next week (which actually could be a win)  The next 5 games might be a better barometer for Kzoo, a few chances for wins definately.

You're right SAC, that's a very tough schedule.  I'm hoping it hasn't beaten them down too much.   

[realist]

OK:  You like competitive games, fine.  Personally I saw a better, more talented team lose 2 games that they should have won.   If you can't win the games you should win early what makes you think you will win the games you must win later?   U of M didn't win the games it should have won early, and didn't win the game it had to win later!

[HopeConvert]

It's pretty clear that Hope should have a higher ranking that Calvin at this point.

I'd actually give Calvin the edge over Wheaton, considering both teams on average. Panner won't usually go 7-7 from 3-point range, and Calvin really played a lackidasical first few minutes, in which they went down 10-2. Calvin was the better team most of the night. (Not to mention that one of Calvin's best players had a bad ankle and limited mobility.)

Nonetheless, Wheaton beat Calvin on Calvin's home floor. How you can possibly rank Calvin ahead of them if you are rewarding actual performance? If Calvin played lackadaisically, more's the pity. should have won.

Here's where this all becomes difficult (and why I'm glad I don't have to do the ranking).  Hope beats Wheaton by 30.  Based on that game, Wheaton is out of the poll.  But then that must mean that Calvin is also out of the poll, since they lost to Wheaton (and maybe Wheaton sneaks back in??), so then Wash U must be further out of the poll, since they lost to Calvin...

With these polls the idea of basing your rankings purely on head to head competition has to go out the window after the first week or two. After that it just becomes such a mess because you get a story of A beat B who lost to C who beat X but lost to A. Then everyone ends up tied ranked 25th.

So that said I think one could still rank Calvin ahead of Wheaton despite the results of this weekend's game based on the total picture of the season so far. I think if you look at Calvin's two losses and Wheaton's one loss plus their respective wins they come out real close. It could go either way.

A couple of thoughts. First of all, we are stumbling on the problem of preseason polling, a practice I would like to see eliminated. While relatively benign as far as basketball is concerned, it is positively pernicious in football. Polling should be based on what teams accomplish, not what we think they might accomplish. So, to get back to the relative merits of Calvin and Wheaton, I agree that we have to look at their body of work. Wheaton is 5-1, with their one loss an embarrassing loss to a very good Hope team when one of the Sonic Atmosphere Disturbance's (thanks GS) star players was out with an injury. They bounced back the next day to beat a good Calvin team on its home floor. Calvin has two losses, one a home loss to Wheaton. I don't see how Calvin's body of work to date is better than Wheaton's. Throw out preseason expectations, as those ought not be relevant. Judging the two teams by their current body of work, Wheaton has had the better season so far. I think Oldknight is right, and by February that will probably no longer be the case. (I also agree that KVS is trying to set the rotations and is experimenting with his team, and that his track record should lead to giving him the benefit of the doubt; I'm also highly confident he knows the Calvin players better than I do. Having said that, it seems to me on the face of it that you want your best players, especially if young, to be building experience and confidence now, before league play begins.) But Titan Q is not asked how he thinks the two teams compare before they've played, nor how he thinks how good they will be in March. He is being asked to compare their bodies of work to date, based on games they've won and games they've lost, and Wheaton's is better. I appreciate that Bob is taking seriously something that, at this point in the season, really isn't that serious. For us, it only matters if it influences Pool C bids.

[Mr. Ypsi]

realist, I'll take exception to your UM comments.  App St, yes; Oregon, no.  IMO Dennis Dixon deserves the Heisman BECAUSE OF his injury - with him, they were legitimate candidates for the title game, without him, they were probably not a top 50 team.  I doubt any other single player in the country was THAT valuable.  (Plus, UM lost 2 at the end, and Wisconsin probably should not have occurred.)

oldknight, be awfully careful second-guessing Bosko - he's got several more national title rings than all the coaches in the MIAA (AND other coaches in the CCIW) combined.  I've got a sneaking suspicion that he may know what to do in November to be ready for March!

(Post noted while typing): HopeConvert, I agree with your post in general, but Calvin's win over WashU (WHEN Sean Wallis was still healthy) far overshadows anything Wheaton has done.  As a Michigander, but a CCIW guy, I'd have no problem either way in terms of Wheaton and Calvin.

[Titan Q]

A couple of thoughts. First of all, we are stumbling on the problem of preseason polling, a practice I would like to see eliminated. While relatively benign as far as basketball is concerned, it is positively pernicious in football. Polling should be based on what teams accomplish, not what we think they might accomplish. So, to get back to the relative merits of Calvin and Wheaton, I agree that we have to look at their body of work. Wheaton is 5-1, with their one loss an embarrassing loss to a very good Hope team when one of the Sonic Atmosphere Disturbance's (thanks GS) star players was out with an injury. They bounced back the next day to beat a good Calvin team on its home floor. Calvin has two losses, one a home loss to Wheaton. I don't see how Calvin's body of work to date is better than Wheaton's.

I actually had Calvin higher than Wheaton on my ballot, despite the head-to-head result Saturday.  Calvin's win over Wash U (with Sean Wallis) is huge for me.  Also, Wheaton had two puzzling games last week before the Calvin win...a 2-pt win vs a so-so Chicago team playing without its best player and then the debacle vs Hope, which exposed Wheaton's lack of depth.

Over the years as a pollster, I have learned that head-to-head results mean a lot, but not necessarily everything...I still try to look at the entire body of work.  In this case, I still like Calvin's just a little better and feel like the Knights are probably the better team, by just a little bit.

(I had Hope ahead of Calvin.)

[Titan Q]

But Titan Q is not asked how he thinks the two teams compare before they've played, nor how he thinks how good they will be in March. He is being asked to compare their bodies of work to date, based on games they've won and games they've lost, and Wheaton's is better. I appreciate that Bob is taking seriously something that, at this point in the season, really isn't that serious. For us, it only matters if it influences Pool C bids.

Thank you, HopeConvert.  All 25 voters are entrusted with taking the poll seriously, and as a group I know we all do.  Polls are really just for fun, but the D3Hoops.com Top 25 poll gets a lot of publicity nowadays and is universally acknowledged as the Division III poll.  I know all of the voters put a lot of work into their ballot each week, and that includes following the message boards.  There are a ton of knowledgeable posters in the D3Hoops.com forum.

[realist]

Mr. Y:  Sorry if I offended you by my choice of the U of M as my example.  I was trying to make the point the App. State loss shouldn't have happened, and I think it spilled over the next week into the OR. game.   I don't think U of M really ever recovered from the first loss, and don't think losses (even early in the season) to teams you should beat do anything positive.
I agree 100% on Bosko.  He definitely had a reason for doing what he did.  Even if it was just letting his players know he wasn't going to let them sit on the bench and sulk while his bench players got hammered making the loss that much worse.

[realist]

Early in the game Sat. versus Hope a Carthage player was given an "intentional" foul against DVS.  I know several Hope posters questioned the validity of that call being made when it went Calvin's way a week ago.  Did you still feel it was an improper call when a Hope player potentially could have been hurt? 
I don't think DVS was in real danger of being hurt on that play, but think the ref. made the call to send a message to the players.  It sure seemed to work.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Early in the game Sat. versus Hope a Carthage player was given an "intentional" foul against DVS.  I know several Hope posters questioned the validity of that call being made when it went Calvin's way a week ago.  Did you still feel it was an improper call when a Hope player potentially could have been hurt? 
I don't think DVS was in real danger of being hurt on that play, but think the ref. made the call to send a message to the players.  It sure seemed to work.

I did not hear that call as I missed the first half of the Carthage game but if it was the product of the same type of play we were discussing last week (ie the offensive player makes a good fake, which causes the defensive player to jump off his feet and in turn he partially lands on the offensive player or the offensive player then goes up to create contact) I still stand by the fact that I disagree with that being an intentional foul. It does not matter to me that the foul was committed by Hope, against Hope, or in a completely different game. If referees intend on calling that an intentional foul all year I am sure there will be times it will help Hope and times it will hurt Hope. I just don't think that is an "intentional" foul. No need to rehash the NCAA definition of an "intentional foul" but at least in my case my opinion from last week is not at all impacted by who the call is against.

As an aside in all the basketball I have watched from high school through the NBA I can't recall a single instance where the offensive player was hurt in the sort of situation I described above. If anything, its usually the defensive player who lands on the offensive players back and ends up landing awkwardly on the floor. So I don't think calling those sorts of plays "intentional fouls" will do anything to improve safety. Just my two cents.