MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Flying Dutch Fan]

So...

Hope didn't lose this game on that foul with 0.5 left - it was really their play throughout the game, their inability to take care of the ball, and some serious scoring droughts that did that.  As others have said this was a good battle between two very good teams.  It's just a shame that a single call ultimately decided the game. 

From where I was sitting, I thought that DVS had actually fouled the shooter.  However, after getting to view a video of the play, it was painfully obvious that he never touched the shooter.  In fact, the shooter came down after the shot, and then flopped forward to draw the foul.  What is so ridiculous about that is that if DVS had made contact with the shooter, he would have had to fall the other direction.   And even if the foul did occur, it had to have been after the shot (after the shooter landed on his feet), which was well after the clock had expired.  This is the kind of game that the refs needed to just let the players decide, in OT.

An additional comment about the officiating.  There was one official that was in both games that Hope played.  At first it seemed to me that this guy had some bias, but then I thought, well maybe it's just my perception, but this particular "gentleman" must have had some obvious thing against Hope, as at least 75% of the calls he made went against Hope (I know this as someone in the crowd was actually tracking it, after the first 5 minutes of the first game).  It's a shame to see that kind of behavior.

[Gregory Sager]

sac, I think Tri-State is able to hang around simply due to how good Tony Benford is.  He's one of the best players I have seen so far in '07-08.

I'll second that. Don't let his high number of shots fool you into thinking that he's selfish; the impression I came away with after watching Tri-State play NPU was that Benford is not only extremely skilled and talented, but that he's in it to win rather than gain personal glory.

[Stinger]

B.S. foul at the end of the game....
Talking about it.....
Tied game...shooting a three...
CRAP.
AT BUZZER

DVS fouling a 3 point shooter with .5 seconds to go in a tie game reminded me of this MSU graduate (magna cum laude) in green. 

http://www.wimp.com/ass/

As someone who was there, I can tell you that you owe Mr. Van Solkema an apology - not to mention the rest of us who read this board.  -K from me too

Who are you to demand an apology for a kid, or anyone else for that matter other than yourself?   I found the video amusing.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Who are you to demand an apology for a kid, or anyone else for that matter other than yourself?   I found the video amusing.

Now there's a surprising response - NOT!

[HopeConvert]

B.S. foul at the end of the game....
Talking about it.....
Tied game...shooting a three...
CRAP.
AT BUZZER

DVS fouling a 3 point shooter with .5 seconds to go in a tie game reminded me of this MSU graduate (magna cum laude) in green. 

http://www.wimp.com/ass/

As someone who was there, I can tell you that you owe Mr. Van Solkema an apology - not to mention the rest of us who read this board.  -K from me too

Who are you to demand an apology for a kid, or anyone else for that matter other than yourself?   I found the video amusing.

A member of this community. This may be a "merely" an online board, but it is still governed by the rules of civility, fair play, integrity, and accountability that bind any community together. That video was probably the lowest comment about a player I have seen in my two years on this board. These are young kids who have a lot on their minds other than basketball, and whose mistakes take place in a very public forum. They deserve our charity, especially given the delight they provide us, rather than our ridicule. I would hope members of our community speak up on the kid's behalf, especially when the player is not there to defend himself. I think the person who posted it ought to take that as an opportunity for self-correction rather than self-defense. The question is not "Who are you to demand an apology?" but rather "Is such a demand legitimate?" Would you really want to live in a world where someone was not able to take a moral stand on behalf of someone else?

You may have found it amusing, but I doubt you would have if you were the player in question, or a member of his family, or a friend. Or perhaps even a Hornet.

There are times on this board when these kids get criticized for not being as far along in their development as we think they ought to be, or don't possess some skills we would like them to have, or don't come through in a game the way we would like. We need to keep all these things in perspective, that we are dealing with genuine student-athletes who are often in demanding majors with significant course loads, in addition to all the pitfalls, pratfalls, and travails that attend developmentally during the college years.

[almcguirejr]

B.S. foul at the end of the game....
Talking about it.....
Tied game...shooting a three...
CRAP.
AT BUZZER

DVS fouling a 3 point shooter with .5 seconds to go in a tie game reminded me of this MSU graduate (magna cum laude) in green. 

http://www.wimp.com/ass/

As someone who was there, I can tell you that you owe Mr. Van Solkema an apology - not to mention the rest of us who read this board.  -K from me too

Who are you to demand an apology for a kid, or anyone else for that matter other than yourself?   I found the video amusing.

A member of this community. This may be a "merely" an online board, but it is still governed by the rules of civility, fair play, integrity, and accountability that bind any community together. That video was probably the lowest comment about a player I have seen in my two years on this board. These are young kids who have a lot on their minds other than basketball, and whose mistakes take place in a very public forum. They deserve our charity, especially given the delight they provide us, rather than our ridicule. I would hope members of our community speak up on the kid's behalf, especially when the player is not there to defend himself. I think the person who posted it ought to take that as an opportunity for self-correction rather than self-defense. The question is not "Who are you to demand an apology?" but rather "Is such a demand legitimate?" Would you really want to live in a world where someone was not able to take a moral stand on behalf of someone else?

You may have found it amusing, but I doubt you would have if you were the player in question, or a member of his family, or a friend. Or perhaps even a Hornet.

There are times on this board when these kids get criticized for not being as far along in their development as we think they ought to be, or don't possess some skills we would like them to have, or don't come through in a game the way we would like. We need to keep all these things in perspective, that we are dealing with genuine student-athletes who are often in demanding majors with significant course loads, in addition to all the pitfalls, pratfalls, and travails that attend developmentally during the college years.

Get off your high horse.  It was a joke.

[Erm Schmigget]

B.S. foul at the end of the game....
Talking about it.....
Tied game...shooting a three...
CRAP.
AT BUZZER

DVS fouling a 3 point shooter with .5 seconds to go in a tie game reminded me of this MSU graduate (magna cum laude) in green. 

http://www.wimp.com/ass/

As someone who was there, I can tell you that you owe Mr. Van Solkema an apology - not to mention the rest of us who read this board.  -K from me too

Who are you to demand an apology for a kid, or anyone else for that matter other than yourself?   I found the video amusing.

A member of this community. This may be a "merely" an online board, but it is still governed by the rules of civility, fair play, integrity, and accountability that bind any community together. That video was probably the lowest comment about a player I have seen in my two years on this board. These are young kids who have a lot on their minds other than basketball, and whose mistakes take place in a very public forum. They deserve our charity, especially given the delight they provide us, rather than our ridicule. I would hope members of our community speak up on the kid's behalf, especially when the player is not there to defend himself. I think the person who posted it ought to take that as an opportunity for self-correction rather than self-defense. The question is not "Who are you to demand an apology?" but rather "Is such a demand legitimate?" Would you really want to live in a world where someone was not able to take a moral stand on behalf of someone else?

You may have found it amusing, but I doubt you would have if you were the player in question, or a member of his family, or a friend. Or perhaps even a Hornet.

There are times on this board when these kids get criticized for not being as far along in their development as we think they ought to be, or don't possess some skills we would like them to have, or don't come through in a game the way we would like. We need to keep all these things in perspective, that we are dealing with genuine student-athletes who are often in demanding majors with significant course loads, in addition to all the pitfalls, pratfalls, and travails that attend developmentally during the college years.

Get off your high horse.  It was a joke.

How did you get your mom to stand still for that?

That's a joke too, no?

[almcguirejr]

How did you get your mom to stand still for that?

That's a joke too, no?

That's pretty good. 

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Unfortunately, I was unable to listen to yesterday's game but it sounds like in the end Hope lost due to a recurring problem. An inability to score/close a game in the last 5 minutes! Happened against Aquinas and was a problem last year at times too. I have no idea how you "fix" that sort of problem but I hope GVW can figure something out because its terribly frustrating to watch a lead evaporate in the last minutes. Still it was a close game and Hope obviously can play with Elmhurst. (Who knows maybe if that "special" ref FDF tracked was not there things would have been better?)

[oldknight]

As much as I hate finding myself on the same side as our Hope bretheren in any debate (is my bias showing?),I have to say that the MSU horse photo was should not have been posted. HC's pithy summary best captures the humanitarian part of the argument and is one with with I agree. There is another, more practical basketball reason why the post was wrong. I didn't see the game so I can't offer any opinion on whether the ref should have made the call in the first place, but I don't find the fact that a defender fouls a shooter at the buzzer of a tied game to necessarily be a major faux pas. I would expect a defender to be playing defense against a shooter at the end of a game when the score is tied. If you saw the end of last night's Celtics/Pistons game you witnessed Tony Allen getting sucked into a great head fake by a great clutch player who never misses free throws when they really count. That play didn't make Tony Allen a horse's a$$. Two years ago, Caleb Veldhouse came downcourt at DeVos at the end of the game with the Knights trailing by two and was whistled (incorrectly) for an offensive foul. That play didn't make him a horse's a$$ either.

[realist]

Having listened to the game I don't think DVS or Hope have anything to be ashamed or embarassed about.  Both teams made plenty of mistakes.  Just look at the t.o.s.  I agree (with FDF) that this game wasn't lost in the last 0.5 seconds.  Over the years I have seen too many teams build a big lead early, and then struggle the rest of the game.  From a Calvin perspective this loss will only make Hope a better team, and they will learn how to protect a lead.  Hope learned more today than they would have beating Grace Bible by 40 points.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

If you saw the end of last night's Celtics/Pistons game you witnessed Tony Allen getting sucked into a great head fake by a great clutch player who never misses free throws when they really count. That play didn't make Tony Allen a horse's a$$.

Returning to an earlier discussion this year when I saw the play referenced above happen live last night my first thought was "I guarantee an NBA ref won't call a flagrant foul on that play." They did not. (Admittedly with .1 seconds left in the game and Billups going to the line the refs could have called a quadruple technical if such a thing existed and the outcome of the game would have been the same). Still in a very small way I think it buttresses my argument that flagrant fouls are not the correct call in that situation.

[Erm Schmigget]

Having listened to the game I don't think DVS or Hope have anything to be ashamed or embarassed about.  Both teams made plenty of mistakes.  Just look at the t.o.s.  I agree (with FDF) that this game wasn't lost in the last 0.5 seconds.  Over the years I have seen too many teams build a big lead early, and then struggle the rest of the game.  From a Calvin perspective this loss will only make Hope a better team, and they will learn how to protect a lead.  Hope learned more today than they would have beating Grace Bible by 40 points.

I too agree with this assessment.  And I hope that they have actually learned something from this loss that will make them better in the last 5 min. of close games.  Rather than simply observed that there is a problem.

Incidentally, the last 5min. of this game was a defensive battle by both teams.  The scoring until "the foul" was 8-7, starting with 1 of 2 free throws by MVH @ 4:55.  Hope went 1 of 5 (3pt) and Elmhurst went 1 of 3 (also 3 pt).  Hope was 5 of 6 from the line and Elmhurst was 4 of 6...and then the final 3 of 3 for the win.

So credit Elmhurst for making an adjustment midway thru the first half to get back in the game.  The second half was just two great teams duking it out on defense to a dramatic finish.  For small college basketball fans with no bias I'm sure it was a great game to watch.

[academy1]

It was a joke, and a funny one at that.  Get over it.  As just graduating a few years ago, I am pretty sure a 22 year old kid can take a little joke.

[Erm Schmigget]

It was a joke, and a funny one at that.  Get over it.  As just graduating a few years ago, I am pretty sure a 22 year old kid can take a little joke.

That's the funny thing about funny.  Funny is subjective.  Your funny isn't someone else's funny.  That's why people who make it in the "funny" business are the ones who know how to choose their audience.  So telling someone to "get over it" is like pushing a rope.  You're not going to get anyone to move from their position that this example was just wrong.

It was funny...just not here, in this context, with this audience.

But keep trying!  I like a good sense of humor...even when it doesn't involve theological/ecumenical banter.