MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[wiz]

FDF: I think you're half right and half wrong. Turnovers, despite how many steals the other team has, and an inability to score at the end of the game could completely be due to the other team. Of course both of those things could be due to one's mistakes, but they also could be caused by great-in your face-buckling down the last few minutes-defense. I wasn't at the game so it could be the former, but I think it is worth pointing out.

Holy smokes, I need to mention the great game by the pistons against the celtics the other night. Great game to watch.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Interesting comments, especially the part about the Pistons.  Wednesday night, Billups took it to the Celtics and drew a foul at a crucial point in the game and then sunk the free throw to win.  A few hours earlier, on Wednesday afternoon, Ryan Burks, knew how to play both DVS and the referee.  He drew the foul and with .5 seconds left, calmly sank all three to seal the victory.  To parallel Sager's comments, perhaps more emphasis needs to be put on the Elmhurst player and his teammates for going out an winning the game.  Burks knew what to do and executed it to perfection.  Elmhurst seems to be a well prepared team and one that knows how to finish.

One thing I don't remember.  Did Hope call a timeout after VanderHeide's final free throw to set up their defense?

[almcguirejr]

Interesting comments, especially the part about the Pistons.  Wednesday night, Billups took it to the Celtics and drew a foul at a crucial point in the game and then sunk the free throw to win.  A few hours earlier, on Wednesday afternoon, Ryan Burks, knew how to play both DVS and the referee.  He drew the foul and with .5 seconds left, calmly sank all three to seal the victory.  To parallel Sager's comments, perhaps more emphasis needs to be put on the Elmhurst player and his teammates for going out an winning the game.  Burks knew what to do and executed it to perfection.  Elmhurst seems to be a well prepared team and one that knows how to finish.

One thing I don't remember.  Did Hope call a timeout after VanderHeide's final free throw to set up their defense?

Elmhurst called a TO with 15 seconds to after MVH made his first free throw.  The Pistons called a time out with 1.7 seconds to go.  I think GVW and Doc Rivers would both emphasize not fouling  when the game was tied.

[sac]

Its already been noted that video evidence suggests there wasn't a foul to be called.

Anyone who wasn't there (FDF, civicminded and GoHope are the only ones I know who were) is just speculating about the circumstances and what exactly happened.

[northb]

Its already been noted that video evidence suggests there wasn't a foul to be called.

Anyone who wasn't there (FDF, civicminded and GoHope are the only ones I know who were) is just speculating about the circumstances and what exactly happened.

Not having been there, SAC, but from what I read on the board, you seem to be making Greg's initial point.  Burks made a play despite DVS playing him as a defender should--in his face enough to affect the shot (perhaps), but not enough to foul him.  But Burks and his team won it (vs. Hope losing it), as he was able to convince the ref that a foul had occurred, and did what he needed to do to finish it out (make the freebies). 

For those that were there, was there any chance to make a shot off the inbounds pass, or was there simply not enough time?

[sac]

Its already been noted that video evidence suggests there wasn't a foul to be called.

Anyone who wasn't there (FDF, civicminded and GoHope are the only ones I know who were) is just speculating about the circumstances and what exactly happened.

Not having been there, SAC, but from what I read on the board, you seem to be making Greg's initial point.  Burks made a play despite DVS playing him as a defender should--in his face enough to affect the shot (perhaps), but not enough to foul him.  But Burks and his team won it (vs. Hope losing it), as he was able to convince the ref that a foul had occurred, and did what he needed to do to finish it out (make the freebies). 

For those that were there, was there any chance to make a shot off the inbounds pass, or was there simply not enough time?

Not really, I've given Elmhurst plenty of props for their defense you just need to skim back a couple pages.

However there is far too much speculation by people who were not there about what exactly happend...........from your own post.

"Burks made a play despite DVS playing him as a defender should--in his face enough to affect the shot (perhaps), but not enough to foul him. "

I have no idea how you could make that assertion without seeing the play.

[NW Hope Fan]

  I think GVW and Doc Rivers would both emphasize not fouling  when the game was tied.

But how we were not able to foul Aaron Winkle before he got that miracle shot off...  Still kills me!

[AndersDY]

But Burks and his team won it (vs. Hope losing it), as he was able to convince the ref that a foul had occurred, and did what he needed to do to finish it out (make the freebies). 

Given the ability of a current Hope starter to convince the refs of fouls that may not actually be there, I feel a little bit like we as Hope fans may be in a glass house if we start speculating too much into the validity of the call.  Based on what FDF described though, it does sound like a call that was one you don't want to see the game end on.

[realist]

NWH:  I recall "the Shot" you mention Aaron Winkle making.  Hope had the lead,  Calvin was on the ropes, logic, and all coaches say don't foul a guy running down the court in the closing seconds when it's tied or you have the lead.  Don't give an open look, but don't foul.  In Aaron's case he knew where he wanted to go, and the defender didn't.  Aaron got lucky hitting an off balance, not squared up prayer off the glass.  Destiny.   I wasn't there so don't know if DVS made any contact the only real issue is obviously the ref. thought he did.  End of game.  I wouldn't fault DVS unless he clearly fouled the guy. 

[almcguirejr]

So...


From where I was sitting, I thought that DVS had actually fouled the shooter. 

Maybe the ref had the same angle.

[sac]

So...
From where I was sitting, I thought that DVS had actually fouled the shooter. 

Maybe the ref had the same angle.

I'd ask what he was doing in the stands?

[Flying Dutch Fan]

So...


From where I was sitting, I thought that DVS had actually fouled the shooter. 

Maybe the ref had the same angle.

Actually, he did not - he was much closer to the same angle as the video I saw.  Look - it's not like we're going to get a call like that changed, and there's no instant replay - thank God.  The only issue I had / have with it was that the official basically decided the outcome at that point (not to take away from any effort or short-falls by either team).  Let the players decide the game.  

As many have said, this will be a great learning experience for Hope.  Can't wait for the league to begin - although leaving the 70 degree weather here in Florida is going to be tough (we just came in from swimming)

[northb]

So...


From where I was sitting, I thought that DVS had actually fouled the shooter. 

Maybe the ref had the same angle.

Actually, he did not - he was much closer to the same angle as the video I saw.  Look - it's not like we're going to get a call like that changed, and there's no instant replay - thank God.  The only issue I had / have with it was that the official basically decided the outcome at that point (not to take away from any effort or short-falls by either team).  Let the players decide the game.  

Not making a call decides the outcome as well.

[northb]

Its already been noted that video evidence suggests there wasn't a foul to be called.

Anyone who wasn't there (FDF, civicminded and GoHope are the only ones I know who were) is just speculating about the circumstances and what exactly happened.

Not having been there, SAC, but from what I read on the board, you seem to be making Greg's initial point.  Burks made a play despite DVS playing him as a defender should--in his face enough to affect the shot (perhaps), but not enough to foul him.  But Burks and his team won it (vs. Hope losing it), as he was able to convince the ref that a foul had occurred, and did what he needed to do to finish it out (make the freebies). 

For those that were there, was there any chance to make a shot off the inbounds pass, or was there simply not enough time?

Not really, I've given Elmhurst plenty of props for their defense you just need to skim back a couple pages.

However there is far too much speculation by people who were not there about what exactly happend...........from your own post.

"Burks made a play despite DVS playing him as a defender should--in his face enough to affect the shot (perhaps), but not enough to foul him. "

I have no idea how you could make that assertion without seeing the play.

Ease up, eh!  I took care to post that I was making that assertion based on the previous posts from others on the board who were there!  I never said that you did not previously post something that supported Greg's assertion, just that the current posts were supporting that now (as well).  Further, I added a qualifier that perhaps that was the case.  Moving on, it is time for dinner!

[ScotsFan]

Based on what FDF described though, it does sound like a call that was one you don't want to see the game end on.

The only issue I had / have with it was that the official basically decided the outcome at that point (not to take away from any effort or short-falls by either team).  Let the players decide the game. 

Well, at least this call didn't come in the NCAA tournament and the result would have ended your season...

[AndersDY]

Yes, I was already down that lovely memory lane, Scots. Of course, calling a questionable late foul is still better than someone sitting at the scorers table forgetting to reset the shot clock so the defenders thought the buzzer had sounded...