MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Dutch_Man]

Because of this, I believe had Hope won by 20 or so, there really wouldn't have been this "storming of the court.

I disagree...anytime Hope beats Calvin there will be a celebration on the court.  It's all part of the deal.

Sorry Veragrace, that statement of yours is not fully true... Last  year at Aurora when Hope beat Calvin in the NCAA tourny, the DewCrew did not rush the court. Hope won 80-64, it was not even by 20 and there was no rushing of the court. ANY WAYS  lets think about the top 5 that will be announced tonight....

I predict it will be.....
1. Amherst
2. Wash U.
3. Hope
4. Rochester
5. Mass-Dartmouth

[veragrace]

Not to be overlooked as a reason for the Hope fans to celebrate on the floor was the fact that their team had just survived a nearly mirror image to the finish of the game at Calvin 2 years ago.  Also, I don't think we've mentioned that a big part of rushing the floor is to congratulate your team.

And I appologize if my rant was over the top, but I can't help but think that we need to allow these kids to be kids.  This rivalry is a pretty special thing - and win or lose, I'm always awed by the fact that after this game, there are always Hope & Calvin folks (players, parents, students, fans) talking with one another.  You see more fans from one team congratulating the other teams players after this game then any other you'll see. 

I see no need to apologize.  Your rant was nothing like the one I amlost posted. 

More's the pity.

Part of the whole idea of college is that we attempt to turn kids into mature adults. This is a college setting, and they represent the college. The question is not whether they should be allowed to spontaneously express themselves, the question in this as all things is what is the virtuous and prudent thing to do. Believe me, "we should allow these kids to be kids" is not part of the mission of the college.

The question of whether it was safer to celebrate on the floor is a fair one. I'd be less troubled by it if it didn't include taunting the Calvin section, which I am told did in fact occur, and is more likely to occur during spontaneous releasing of "energy, adrenaline, and pure emotion." Generally speaking, when such release is occurring, it is up to cooler heads to prevail. Surely it wouldn't be impossible to habituate our expressions of joy and emotion into constructive ways. There was no shortage of energy and enthusiasm at the DC party (apples and oranges, perhaps) but its expression was within the confines of reason.

FDF - I think your description of what is great about this rivalry is exactly right, and is part of what makes it special. Deep down, we wish one another well. I'd like to see such conviviality sustained - particularly in the context of a game that matters precisely because it doesn't.

Perhaps I'm still a child/college girl at heart but boy did it feel good to walk into my CRC church on Sunday wearing orange and blue.  We are definitely in the minority there with plenty of "good natured ribbing" occuring, but it's always good to be on the winning side.  They expect it from us and we expect it from them.  It wouldn't be right without it.  And then we proceed to worship together.
These kids don't mean any long term harm from their "taunting" and probably aren't even thinking about it today.  Neither the "taunters" nor the "tauntees"  And it wasn't a big story on the news, so nobody else is worried about it either.  Just our little circle of observers.   Enough...

[sac]

How will it work if the Hope women and men finish at the top of their Regions and hosting?
Has the rules changed about both being allowed to host...etc?
I know the women's final four is at Hope this year.
Just want to know what would happen.
Sac, any help would be appreciated?

If both men's and women's teams are in position to host a 1st and 2nd round "pod" of games, in even years the men take priority.  We're a very long way from worrying about that, lets make the tournament first.

I have not asked anyone of authority that question, but it was what sent the ladies on the road in 2006.

[hope_hoops1]

In response to the fans storming the court, I like it.  If Hope-Calvin can rank #4 in an ESPN featured rivalry show, there is going to be fans storming the court.  If this is the worst the situation gets, I say we should be thankful.  Calvin stormed the court at the DeVos twice last year, Hope stormed the court this year at Knollcrest and I'm sure Hope will rush the floor when they win the first game at the new fieldhouse...it's going to happen.  The fact that the fans are passionate about this game separates it from all other D-III athletics, outside of maybe a national championship game.

What we should be focusing on is the game itself.  Both teams have a lot of positives to take away from it.  Obviously, Hope won @ Calvin.  Anytime that happens you have to feel good.  The lack of production (though limited chances) out of the bench has to be troublesome.  GVW seems to have less confidence in his bench this year than years past and does not have many veterans to provide leadership off of the bench.  The freshmen are good, but they are still freshmen, and it showed on Saturday.  Calvin has to feel good in the fact that MVH and Wolfe combined for 56 points and Calvin was within a Veldhouse 3 of going to overtime.  I can't imagine Hope will get that production out of 2 players again all season.  As someone else posted earlier, Calvin really missed Meckes.  His ability to guard many positions and limit the production of the other teams best player would have been huge.  Overall, a great game and the team that made the last run (Hope) won.  I look forward to another tough week for Hope where they can furthur separate themselves from the pack in the MIAA race.

[Erm Schmigget]

Not to be overlooked as a reason for the Hope fans to celebrate on the floor was the fact that their team had just survived a nearly mirror image to the finish of the game at Calvin 2 years ago.  Also, I don't think we've mentioned that a big part of rushing the floor is to congratulate your team.

And I appologize if my rant was over the top, but I can't help but think that we need to allow these kids to be kids.  This rivalry is a pretty special thing - and win or lose, I'm always awed by the fact that after this game, there are always Hope & Calvin folks (players, parents, students, fans) talking with one another.  You see more fans from one team congratulating the other teams players after this game then any other you'll see. 

I see no need to apologize.  Your rant was nothing like the one I amlost posted. 

More's the pity.

Part of the whole idea of college is that we attempt to turn kids into mature adults. This is a college setting, and they represent the college. The question is not whether they should be allowed to spontaneously express themselves, the question in this as all things is what is the virtuous and prudent thing to do. Believe me, "we should allow these kids to be kids" is not part of the mission of the college.

The question of whether it was safer to celebrate on the floor is a fair one. I'd be less troubled by it if it didn't include taunting the Calvin section, which I am told did in fact occur, and is more likely to occur during spontaneous releasing of "energy, adrenaline, and pure emotion." Generally speaking, when such release is occurring, it is up to cooler heads to prevail. Surely it wouldn't be impossible to habituate our expressions of joy and emotion into constructive ways. There was no shortage of energy and enthusiasm at the DC party (apples and oranges, perhaps) but its expression was within the confines of reason.

FDF - I think your description of what is great about this rivalry is exactly right, and is part of what makes it special. Deep down, we wish one another well. I'd like to see such conviviality sustained - particularly in the context of a game that matters precisely because it doesn't.

Then the mere fact that I stifled my initial response before broadcasting it proves that my college career was successful.  

Honestly though, when I say that FDF's rant was nothing like mine I refer only to the content, not the amout of emotion poured out.  I was commenting on what a pity it is that we should lose that level of enthusiasm in our celebrations (in the context of sports, family, worship, etc.).  We can be prudent without being prudes.  And remember, it is a process.  It occurs gradually over time.  We don't snap into maturity just by enrolling in college.

If you're going to riff on how we ought to draw the line at celebrating and stop short of taunting our nemeses, then do that.  There is no reason to tell the students they must all celebrate prudently, remaining in one place, being cautious not to offend the fans who have so faithfully cheered for your opponents.  It should be enough to instead offer correction to the few who crossed the line into unsportsmanlike conduct.  Thus avoiding becoming a wet blanket, no?

[ChicagoHopeNut]

I predict it will be.....
1. Amherst
2. Wash U.
3. Hope
4. Rochester
5. Mass-Dartmouth

1. Amherst
2. Wash U
3. Rochester
4. Hope
5. UMass - Dartmouth

I don't think Hope can catapult Rochester after Rochester suffers just its first loss, on the road, in overtime. Honestly, as the only one loss team of the top 4 I think there is a valid argument that Rochester is still #1 and I expect they will get a few #1 votes.

[Dutch_Man]

I predict it will be.....
1. Amherst
2. Wash U.
3. Hope
4. Rochester
5. Mass-Dartmouth

1. Amherst
2. Wash U
3. Rochester
4. Hope
5. UMass - Dartmouth

I don't think Hope can catapult Rochester after Rochester suffers just its first loss, on the road, in overtime. Honestly, as the only one loss team of the top 4 I think there is a valid argument that Rochester is still #1 and I expect they will get a few #1 votes.

I will admit that I was hesitant to put Hope over Rochester. I am sure that Rochester will receive some #1 votes. I will also admit that I have my orange and blue glasses on right now haha  (I may have even voted for Hope to be #1 on the D3 pole  ) I am excited to see the out come of the Wash U. and Rochester this week. That will be a big help us get closer to our answer of who is #1. For now I do believe it is a toss up.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Part of the whole idea of college is that we attempt to turn kids into mature adults. This is a college setting, and they represent the college. The question is not whether they should be allowed to spontaneously express themselves, the question in this as all things is what is the virtuous and prudent thing to do. Believe me, "we should allow these kids to be kids" is not part of the mission of the college.

I guess I didn't realize that college means a student must be in a constant state of learning and growing, and never be allowed to express themselves.  Seems to me that becoming mature also means realizing that when you encounter a moment of real joy in your life that you should stop and celebrate it.  

Note to self - don't invite HopeConvert to join you in Disneyworld, lest you be caught expressing joy or behaving immaturely    

[Erm Schmigget]

1.  Amherst
2.  Rochester
3.  Washington U
4.  Hope
5.  Mass-Dartmouth

I also see Amherst in the top spot, but Rochester's OT loss to Emory doesn't move them down more than one spot, imho.  UMD's record is impressive, to be sure, but I don't think their win over 9-7 W. Conn. will be impressive enough to change many voters' opinions that Hope ranks higher.  So Brandeis drops out of the top 5, Amherst leap-frogs Rochester, and UMass-Dartmouth gets a much-deserved top 5 spot.  Maybe.  We'll see.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

1  Wash U
2  Amherst
3  Hope
4  Rochester
5  Capital

[ChicagoHopeNut]

1  Wash U
2  Amherst
3  Hope
4  Rochester
5  Capital

Oh, you are going to make some UMD poster really upset with that Top 5. haha.

[Erm Schmigget]

1  Wash U
2  Amherst
3  Hope
4  Rochester
5  Capital

Did you put Capital just because the beat Bald Wally last Saturday?  

[AndersDY]

ps...your tag at the bottom from Austin Powers is my favorite line from that movie.

good stuff...although 50% of me didn't find it funny.

Lisa: "You can't judge a place you've never been to."
Bart: "Yeah, that's what they do in Russia."

How timely for it to intersect on this board that the topic of men's/women's hosting brought DoTheDew to remind us of that recent trip to DePauw. Now Morehouse himself felt fit to call dead-horse on the griping about that trip over on the women's board, so I won't dredge the details back up, but 99% of the goings-on in the stands (and on the post-game floor) at a Hope-Calvin are so far from over the line to not warrant even our concern. The only instances I can think of specifically for either side to be ashamed over were the tradeoffs last year with hat-stealing, parading Calvin's mini-mascot in front of the dance team, and the apparent written propaganda against that mini-mascot. Fake banners, phony lineup introductions, "back to basics", etc... all generally fun. I actually received more nasty treatment in my only trip to see Hope at a certain other MIAA facility than I have in the 5-10 times I've watched Hope at Knollcrest.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

1  Wash U
2  Amherst
3  Hope
4  Rochester
5  Capital

Did you put Capital just because the beat Bald Wally last Saturday?  

Dang, you figured it out   

[HopeConvert]

Good grief, what a caricature of my position. Anyone who was at the DC party Saturday will tell you I have no problems with spontaneous expressions of joy, nor have I ever advocated the position that a virtuous life precludes such joy and celebration. Quite the contrary. Never be allowed to express themselves? When have I ever suggested such a thing? I've simply raised the question about how such joy and enthusiasm is expressed. Surely none of you would advocate that anything goes. You may think I'm drawing the line in the wrong place, but the fact is we are all drawing lines. If you think I'm drawing the line in the wrong place, then it is incumbent upon you to demonstrate why that is the case, rather than resorting to bromides about youthful enthusiasm and the joy of winning.

Unbelievable.

I'm not sure I would bump Rochester out of first place after an overtime loss on the road in the UAA. I'd probably go:

1. Wash U (I think it was sac who noted what a great story this is, having lost Wallis)
2. Rochester
3. UMD
4. Hope
5. Amherst

(You'll all be happy to know this is the last I will have to say about this issue)