MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Gregory Sager]

Some notes on the conference tourney debate:

I'm pretty sure the tourney only counts as one game toward the d3 limit of 25 (since half the teams will only GET one game); if I'm remembering that correctly, dropping the tourney could only add one non-con game, not three.

That rule was changed last year, Chuck. Conference tourneys no longer count towards the regular season at all. Everyone and anyone is allowed to play 25 regular-season games.

[Gregory Sager]

I would assume no problem, as we never even had Good Friday off from school. I believe it is only a Sunday thing.

Uh-uh. Schools that are participating in the D3 men's basketball tournament can declare a game-day conflict for religious reasons for any day that the institution considers religiously significant, not just a Sunday.

Here's the rule, found on page 18 of this year's D3 men's basketball championship handbook:

Religious/Commencement Conflicts Policies
The NCAA Division III Presidents Council has reaffirmed the following policies for
the 2007-08 championships:
Religious Reasons. If a participating institution has a written policy against
competition on a particular day for religious reasons, it shall inform the NCAA
championships staff liaison in writing one week before the selection date for it or one
of its student-athletes to be excused from competing on that day. The championship
schedule shall be adjusted to accommodate that institution.

[Civic Minded]

I would assume no problem, as we never even had Good Friday off from school. I believe it is only a Sunday thing.

Uh-uh. Schools that are participating in the D3 men's basketball tournament can declare a game-day conflict for religious reasons for any day that the institution considers religiously significant, not just a Sunday.

Here's the rule, found on page 18 of this year's D3 men's basketball championship handbook:

Religious/Commencement Conflicts Policies
The NCAA Division III Presidents Council has reaffirmed the following policies for
the 2007-08 championships:
Religious Reasons. If a participating institution has a written policy against
competition on a particular day for religious reasons, it shall inform the NCAA
championships staff liaison in writing one week before the selection date for it or one
of its student-athletes to be excused from competing on that day. The championship
schedule shall be adjusted to accommodate that institution.

I don't believe NWHF's issue was with NCAA rules, but rather he was talking about whether or not Hope would have an issue with playing on Good Friday.  Since Hope does not give students a day off from classes for Good Friday (or hadn't during his tenure), he doesn't believe that Hope would have an issue with playing a game on Good Friday.  Did I miss something?

[ChicagoHopeNut]

I would assume no problem, as we never even had Good Friday off from school. I believe it is only a Sunday thing.

Uh-uh. Schools that are participating in the D3 men's basketball tournament can declare a game-day conflict for religious reasons for any day that the institution considers religiously significant, not just a Sunday.

Here's the rule, found on page 18 of this year's D3 men's basketball championship handbook:

Religious/Commencement Conflicts Policies
The NCAA Division III Presidents Council has reaffirmed the following policies for
the 2007-08 championships:
Religious Reasons. If a participating institution has a written policy against
competition on a particular day for religious reasons, it shall inform the NCAA
championships staff liaison in writing one week before the selection date for it or one
of its student-athletes to be excused from competing on that day. The championship
schedule shall be adjusted to accommodate that institution.

I don't believe NWHF's issue was with NCAA rules, but rather he was talking about whether or not Hope would have an issue with playing on Good Friday.  Since Hope does not give students a day off from classes for Good Friday (or hadn't during his tenure), he doesn't believe that Hope would have an issue with playing a game on Good Friday.  Did I miss something?

CM you are correct. NWHF made that statement in response to my question of whether not Hope would consider playing on Good Friday an issue since it will not play on Sundays. As I recall with my memory spurred on by NWHF Hope does not have classes on Good Friday but it is not technically a day off either as professors and staff are expected to come to work. The online Hope schedule currently describes Good Friday as "not an official holiday." So I think the approach is the one I just described and would not cause an issue for the basketball teams. I also just realized Good Friday is during Hope's spring break this year so listing it as a not official holiday seems superfluous to students, I assume that designation applies to staff.

It also just occurred to me that Hope is hosting the Women's Final Four on Good Friday so clearly the teams playing on Good Friday is not considered an issue at Hope like playing on Sundays.

[realist]

  I find it hard to believe that anyone would seriously posture that Calvin had this "grand master plan/plot/scheme" to drop several games late in the season only to "spring" a trap on "unsuspecting" better teams.   Even Hillary with her "vast right wing consipiracy claims"  has to be rof lol on those posts.
Regarding the MIAA tournament one has to go back to the late 80's early 90's to understand the reasoning why the MIAA went this route.  It seems to me if the various member schools feel the tourney has lost relevance they would eliminate it.  Considering the numbers Sac has posted on how seldom this has hurt any league champion this seems to be tilting at windmills a bit.
Just curious?  Why are many Hope posters so afraid of having to play  Calvin again?   

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Just curious?  Why are many Hope posters so afraid of having to play an obviously inferior Calvin team again?   

I am not afraid of Calvin and regardless of the tourney I am pretty sure Hope is a Pool C lock. I just used the occasion of the upcoming tourney to voice my displeasure with the general concept of any tourney awarding the automatic bid. My distaste for this practice spreads to all conferences, divisions, and sports. (I find the practice of emphasizing a 3 game tourney, despite not giving a guaranteed bid to the winner particularly galling in women's soccer in the MIAA but that is because I think that concept goes against all good soccer practice throughout the world. Ok, that is all another issue, I will take a deep breath and move on). Even though it is rare I don't agree with a practice that leads to a 13-15 John Jay team getting the first NCAA tourney bid when other teams that were more consistent and good throughout the year are left sitting at home.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Just curious?  Why are many Hope posters so afraid of having to play  Calvin again?   

The same reason that Albion is wary of Calvin, it's very hard to beat the same team 3 times in a season.  Doesn't change the fact that I think Hope wins the tournament, or the fact that I would prefer to play Albion for another reason - payback!

[hope1]

yes that would be nice to play albion maybe 2 more times 1 this week and maybe next week 

[Happy Calvin Guy]

Its circumstances like above why I don't like conference tournaments where the winner gets the automatic bid to the NCAA tourney.

Are you sure it's not because of circumstances like BW getting an automatic bid in 95?

[realist]

DCHN:  I don't have strong feelings one way or the other regarding conference tournaments.   As long as everyone understands the conference AQ is awarded this way.  I respect your position, and must admit I wasn't a happy camper in 99 when Calvin got knocked out of the tournament by Defiance.  If I recall correctly the $ involved did play an important part in the MIAA's decision to go the tournament route.   Either the tournament offsets some conference administration costs or the member schools fund the entire bill.   
Like FDF I expect Hope to win the tournament, and not sure if it would be better to play Calvin or Albion. 

[HopeConvert]

I find it hard to believe that anyone would seriously posture that Calvin had this "grand master plan/plot/scheme" to drop several games late in the season only to "spring" a trap on "unsuspecting" better teams.   Even Hillary with her "vast right wing consipiracy claims"  has to be rof lol on those posts.
Regarding the MIAA tournament one has to go back to the late 80's early 90's to understand the reasoning why the MIAA went this route.  It seems to me if the various member schools feel the tourney has lost relevance they would eliminate it.  Considering the numbers Sac has posted on how seldom this has hurt any league champion this seems to be tilting at windmills a bit.
Just curious?  Why are many Hope posters so afraid of having to play  Calvin again?   

Um - because we might lose.

[HopeConvert]

Less tongue in cheek: having handled Calvin twice this year, there wouldn't be as big a thrill beating them again, and it takes some of the luster off the rivalry. But if you lose, it's a huge high for Calvin and a bad loss for Hope. There's simply not much to be gained, but more to be lost in a rematch.

[calvinite]

Just curious?  Why are many Hope posters so afraid of having to play an obviously inferior Calvin team again?   

(I find the practice of emphasizing a 3 game tourney, despite not giving a guaranteed bid to the winner particularly galling in women's soccer in the MIAA but that is because I think that concept goes against all good soccer practice throughout the world. Ok, that is all another issue, I will take a deep breath and move on).

From a 'fairness' standard, I completely agree with DCHN. As a Calvin fan, I also agree. But I'd just like to throw out the idea that maybe it's good to have the conference tournament and associated automatic bid for sake of college basketball in general, and especially for less 'powerful' college programs. Going back 50 years in the MIAA, only 7 times have schools other than Calvin, Albion, or Hope won the MIAA-- and more than half of those 7 times these schools shared the title (probably with Calvin, Hope, Albion). As SAC articulately pointed out earlier, I don't think it happens often that underdog teams win the tournament, BUT I think it's FAR more likely for some teams to win the tournament (especially if top seeds get knocked out by other teams) than for them to win the conference. While not fair, it adds to the excitement, and gives other schools a little something to look forward to at the end of the year--motivation to work hard at the end of the season when it's mathematically impossible to win the conference.

While I think both Calvin and Hope have been 'screwed' in the selection process (tournament loss or otherwise) from a fairness standpoint -- and as devastating as that is to me/us -- I think this is a small price to pay to give a school like Adrian (hasn't won the MIAA since 1955) a chance/shot/dream at post-season play, let alone exciting tournament games at the end of the season.  I think Calvin and Hope owe at least a little of their success to the overall quality of the other colleges in the MIAA; the tournament format, I think, helps motivate and make all teams better and more prepared for the NCAA tournament--and I think it's especially good for less successful schools--even if the 'BEST' team isn't always 'picked' 100% of the time.

My two cents worth....

[sac]

Its circumstances like above why I don't like conference tournaments where the winner gets the automatic bid to the NCAA tourney.

Are you sure it's not because of circumstances like BW getting an automatic bid in 95?

<twitch>

[northb]

Its circumstances like above why I don't like conference tournaments where the winner gets the automatic bid to the NCAA tourney.

Are you sure it's not because of circumstances like BW getting an automatic bid in 95?

<twitch>

That is just mean HCG, mean, mean, mean.  You made lovable old SAC start getting nauseous again.

SAC--go to your happy place....visualize the allsports banners...it'll be ok.  That mean team from Ohio can't hurt you...they are only 11-14, and probably won't win their tournament...relax....