MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Pat Coleman]

Well, to be honest, any map has its foibles just because there are lines. Why is it you can go 205 miles and be in the Central Time Zone and go a thousand miles in another direction and still be in Eastern Time? Because the map is the map.

[Mr. Ypsi]

The GL region to me looks like it was made in a very arbitrary manner.  In fact it seems to be in direct conflict with the NCAA's own stated objectives.  How else does on explain a MI team playing a Virginia team counting as "in region" while playing a IN team over 200 miles away does not count.

Any Michigan D-III team playing any Indiana D-III team is indeed an in-region game, however, regardless of mileage.

My Bad.  I meant to change that to IL before I posted it.

As long as there are regions, there will inevitably be weirdnesses.  IWU's loss to Oxy was in-region; our win over Tri-State was not.  (By way of compensation, our win over CMS was in-region; our loss to Albion was not! )

[sac]

That said, I am also glad to know that the selection committee doesn't lean on the d3hoops poll as the primary determinant of the tourney field, and that more quantitative measures are used. 

Which is all fine and dandy, except that our poll historically is the better predictor of tournament success than the regional rankings.

Really?  Is that why you made your #10 team from a year ago, your most likely to disappoint team? 

[Pat Coleman]

Based on the stacked bracket they were in, which was also determined using regional and not national criteria, yep.

[Erm Schmigget]

Well, to be honest, any map has its foibles just because there are lines. Why is it you can go 205 miles and be in the Central Time Zone and go a thousand miles in another direction and still be in Eastern Time? Because the map is the map.

Close.  Maps have foibles because they are human creations, as are time zones.  And hours and minutes for that matter.  They are tools for us to use to maintain order and keep some sense of where we are and when we're there.  How we use them is up to us, and therefore subject to more error, since to err is human.  The question is, are we using these tools for our purposes in the best way we can, without getting too ridiculous?  I think this is the heart of our disagreements over which games "should" or "should not" be in-region: we disagree over the answer to this question of how we are using our tools...to the point where some of us start to think others are tools!   

[HopeConvert]

That, and state lines are political designations. They're not regional or athletic designations, and I'm not sure why they should be determinative for determining who gets to a national tournament. State borders and time zones don't have any intrinsic relevance to a basketball tournament. I see no reason why southern IN should be in region, and northeastern IL not in region. I don't recall anything in the Northwest Ordinance about regional matchups. I hate to say this, but this is something DI gets right: state lines have no meaning.

So, here's a radical idea that others (FDF, if I recall right) have advanced: if it's a DIII game, it counts. Why's that so hard?

[ChicagoHopeNut]

So, here's a radical idea that others (FDF, if I recall right) have advanced: if it's a DIII game, it counts. Why's that so hard?

While I agree completely. Based on all that I have heard my guess is that the reason behind the NCAA's regional rules (this makes much more sense for 200 miles than administrative region) is that if all games counted it would provide the wealthier schools (i.e. UAA, Amherst, etc.) the ability to travel all over to create the best possible SOS and tournament resume. By focusing on regions the NCAA attempts to level the playing field and eliminate some of the financial discrepancies.

[Erm Schmigget]

That, and state lines are political designations. They're not regional or athletic designations, and I'm not sure why they should be determinative for determining who gets to a national tournament. State borders and time zones don't have any intrinsic relevance to a basketball tournament. I see no reason why southern IN should be in region, and northeastern IL not in region. I don't recall anything in the Northwest Ordinance about regional matchups. I hate to say this, but this is something DI gets right: state lines have no meaning.

So, here's a radical idea that others (FDF, if I recall right) have advanced: if it's a DIII game, it counts. Why's that so hard?

HERE HERE!!

[northb]

That, and state lines are political designations. They're not regional or athletic designations, and I'm not sure why they should be determinative for determining who gets to a national tournament. State borders and time zones don't have any intrinsic relevance to a basketball tournament. I see no reason why southern IN should be in region, and northeastern IL not in region. I don't recall anything in the Northwest Ordinance about regional matchups. I hate to say this, but this is something DI gets right: state lines have no meaning.

So, here's a radical idea that others (FDF, if I recall right) have advanced: if it's a DIII game, it counts. Why's that so hard?

My understanding is that the hard part is the financial burden that puts on schools to go so far away.  Div I can afford to fly here and there; Div III defines itself in a different way.

[MWKnight]

back to basketball!!!!!

[monsoon]

By focusing on regions the NCAA attempts to level the playing field and eliminate some of the financial discrepancies.

So why not go with, as someone suggested above, the nearest 50 or the nearest 75 DIII schools?

Another piece of this that I don't understand is why schools are limited to 200 miles for regional games, but the NCAA can bus teams up to 500 miles come March?  What's good for the goose...

[HopeConvert]

So, here's a radical idea that others (FDF, if I recall right) have advanced: if it's a DIII game, it counts. Why's that so hard?

While I agree completely. Based on all that I have heard my guess is that the reason behind the NCAA's regional rules (this makes much more sense for 200 miles than administrative region) is that if all games counted it would provide the wealthier schools (i.e. UAA, Amherst, etc.) the ability to travel all over to create the best possible SOS and tournament resume. By focusing on regions the NCAA attempts to level the playing field and eliminate some of the financial discrepancies.

Tell that to the WIAC.

And in any case, SOS is a two-edged sword. They'll lose some of those games too. Besides, I'd be quite surprised if, assuming the rules were changed, Amherst's or Brandeis's administrators rubbed their hands in glee at the prospect of improving their SOS by allocating more travel dollars to a DIII basketball program.

[HopeConvert]

That, and state lines are political designations. They're not regional or athletic designations, and I'm not sure why they should be determinative for determining who gets to a national tournament. State borders and time zones don't have any intrinsic relevance to a basketball tournament. I see no reason why southern IN should be in region, and northeastern IL not in region. I don't recall anything in the Northwest Ordinance about regional matchups. I hate to say this, but this is something DI gets right: state lines have no meaning.

So, here's a radical idea that others (FDF, if I recall right) have advanced: if it's a DIII game, it counts. Why's that so hard?

My understanding is that the hard part is the financial burden that puts on schools to go so far away.  Div I can afford to fly here and there; Div III defines itself in a different way.

No one is telling them they have to; they're just not getting penalized if they do.

[sac]

Well, I have serious problems with some of the matchups in D1, and I'd rather not see any part of D3 go that route.  Dealing with the UAA is enough, thanks.

There are just too many holes that can be punched in the regional system, its very flawed, in some cases very unfair.  It was originally intended to simplify things and now its become so complicated its difficult to even understand some elements.

[HopeConvert]

Well, I have serious problems with some of the matchups in D1, and I'd rather not see any part of D3 go that route.  Dealing with the UAA is enough, thanks.

There are just too many holes that can be punched in the regional system, its very flawed, in some cases very unfair.  It was originally intended to simplify things and now its become so complicated its difficult to even understand some elements.

I don't think it would go that route. Matchups would be determined by the constraints of the market and the self-determining choices of the schools, rather than by bureaucratic fiat. You might see more matchups between the MIAA and the OAC, WIAC, and the NCAC. You might see more Calvin/Wash U matchups.

That said, I'm glad not to be part of the UAA. I have my theories about the organization of that league; suffice it to say I don't find the set-up very rational, although it's quite possible I'm missing something.