MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Overtheback]

In the Ursinus game, the posters to this point have been correct that there was no reason to fear their monstrosity in the middle. He was pretty much a liability who would come in the game until his next foul would mean he needed to wait on the bench a while. As far as missing players to injury, they did something special for the opening tip of the consolation game to get a player on the floor as a starter just for the first second. Klein held off the jump ball and the big guy tapped it right to #21 for Ursinus, they then stopped the clock to sub him out. The fans were chanting MVP for him, so I assume that was an important loss which may explain their showing for the weekend. I was meanwhile chuckling to myself, complaining that "aw, c'mon, Ryan was gonna win that tip..."

Number 21 for Ursinus was senior guard Nick Shattuck (21.2 ppg, 6.2 rpg). Shattuck was just named a second-team d3hoops.com All-American this past weekend. As d-mac said, Shattuck hobbled through the tourney on two bad ankles, played on Friday even though he was supposedly something like only 50% or 60% of his usual self, and only took the floor for the opening tip on Saturday afternoon in the consolation game. The people in this room who dissed Ursinus without knowing that Shattuck was hurt didn't do their homework.

I assume I am being referred as one of the people that didn't do his "homework."  I knew that #21 was out and it was clear from the fan's support he was important - had even read the d3 feature before the weekend.  I was simply asking (and it appears that it has now been answered) whether he really made that big of a difference (and we are talking about almost forty points v Amherst, 20 v Hope).  Very disappointing to Ursinus to have their season impacted like that in the Final Four. 

Another poster mentioned that #41 usually plays better but had a bad weekend.  Fair.  Against Hope, however, #23 was the third big option for Ursinus.  No, I have not seen any of their other games all season.  For all I know #23 had his best game of the season and usually cannot hit the broad side of a barn.  But what I know is on Saturday, I would have played him until he needed a rest.  He was playing that well and kept bringing the team back in the game.  Always glad as a fan when the Ursinus coach took him out.

Before Saturday's game vs Hope, #23 (Matt Howell) played in 13 of 33 Ursinus games on the season.  In those 13 games, he played 65 minutes total (5 per game), scored 22 poinst (1.7 per game), and pulled down 7 rebounds (0.5 per game).

Michael Shema, #41, started all 33 games for Ursinus.  The Bears ran the table in the Centennial Conference (18-0) and got to Salem.  Shema averaged 8.9 points, 6.2 rebounds, and shot .621 from the field.

Playing Howell over Shema would be like Hope playing Dan Holt instead of Ryan Klein.  The suggestion here that Ursinus was somehow making a mistake by playing Shema is laughable.

We have MANY laughable moments in this chat room.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Final Top 25 for 07-08 is out, and Hope is #3.  Not sure I agree that Amherst is a better team.  Based on the four games I watched in Salem this past weekend, I would think the Dutchmen would beat the Lord Jeffs.

Albion also getting some love at #32.  Too bad the NCAA didn't see it that way.

[Pat Coleman]

I know Bob has already been ragged on for his opinion, but the other five voters who were in Salem also each put Amherst ahead of Hope.

[AndersDY]

Augustana was an NAIA member, but that was prior to the formation of D3. Augie's a charter member of this division.

What other aspect of D3 basketball history is up for debate as to strength, aside from the tournament? How would you measure it otherwise? Non-conference regular season record? The whole point of the tournament is that it provdes arbitration for just such a discussion. And, again, the context is clear from AndersDY's post -- he was in the Salem Civic Center, he was looking at the banners, and he was asking about the historical strength of non-champion programs. What alternative thread of discussion could there be?

My question wasn't meant to be posed in only the context of the tournament. As I looked at who has won titles, I was remembering how high I see both Hope and COW on lists of all time D3 wins and winning percentage. The other teams I'm used to seeing heading such lists: Witt, Calvin, IWU of course have made it there. Now that you've re-framed the discussion a bit, I'm guessing that when I see all time "D3" lists, I am seeing a list of all-time records for teams currently classified as D3 so that shows their winning for a longer time period, but also through various levels/divisions. I of course cannot find such a list currently to recall how the wins were broken down.

The all-time history in my mind was all season long every year, so more historic but less focused on tourney results. I don't know that strictly tournament results make for an perfectly even type of arbitration either though, given the tournament's historically geographic limitations. Certainly I'll give Augustana credit for that type of tournament record coming out of the midwest but I'd question if a team like F+M has faced as tough a climb each time they are in the tournament (ie - do they end up facing a Calvin in the first weekend with regularity?).

[AndersDY]

Hope is ranked > 1, that's about all that matters at this point. Great season, let's finish the next great year that comes along and not worrying about what internet vote we get.

[sac]

I'm fine with #3, I think Hope could beat Amherst, but like vs WashU it would take a better than average performance.  Amherst was huge, but other than a couple guys, not to athletic to the point Hope couldn't defend them or score on them.  It would have been a fun game to watch.

Most of the same people voting Amherst over Hope and watching Friday night figured Amherst would handle Washington on Saturday as well, and I don't recall Amherst ever leading.   There's simply no way of knowing. 

[NW Hope Fan]

Augustana was an NAIA member, but that was prior to the formation of D3. Augie's a charter member of this division.

What other aspect of D3 basketball history is up for debate as to strength, aside from the tournament? How would you measure it otherwise? Non-conference regular season record? The whole point of the tournament is that it provdes arbitration for just such a discussion. And, again, the context is clear from AndersDY's post -- he was in the Salem Civic Center, he was looking at the banners, and he was asking about the historical strength of non-champion programs. What alternative thread of discussion could there be?

My question wasn't meant to be posed in only the context of the tournament. As I looked at who has won titles, I was remembering how high I see both Hope and COW on lists of all time D3 wins and winning percentage. The other teams I'm used to seeing heading such lists: Witt, Calvin, IWU of course have made it there. Now that you've re-framed the discussion a bit, I'm guessing that when I see all time "D3" lists, I am seeing a list of all-time records for teams currently classified as D3 so that shows their winning for a longer time period, but also through various levels/divisions. I of course cannot find such a list currently to recall how the wins were broken down.

The all-time history in my mind was all season long every year, so more historic but less focused on tourney results. I don't know that strictly tournament results make for an perfectly even type of arbitration either though, given the tournament's historically geographic limitations. Certainly I'll give Augustana credit for that type of tournament record coming out of the midwest but I'd question if a team like F+M has faced as tough a climb each time they are in the tournament (ie - do they end up facing a Calvin in the first weekend with regularity?).

Well that's what I thought you meant... 

[Flying Dutch Fan]

I'm fine with #3, I think Hope could beat Amherst, but like vs WashU it would take a better than average performance.  Amherst was huge, but other than a couple guys, not to athletic to the point Hope couldn't defend them or score on them.  It would have been a fun game to watch.

Most of the same people voting Amherst over Hope and watching Friday night figured Amherst would handle Washington on Saturday as well, and I don't recall Amherst ever leading.   There's simply no way of knowing. 

Yeah, and that's the hard part.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

In the spirit of planning ahead, would I be correct in my belief that the MIAA-CCIW Challenge will be held at Wheaton in early December?

[Flying Dutch Fan]

DCHN - I presume you are correct.

[realist]

Some of the comments on final ranking are very interesting, especially when I recall the two D3 game announcers saying at half time (of Hope/WashU game) that based on the first half, "they would take either Hope or Wash U over Amherst" at that time.

[tniem]

In the Ursinus game, the posters to this point have been correct that there was no reason to fear their monstrosity in the middle. He was pretty much a liability who would come in the game until his next foul would mean he needed to wait on the bench a while. As far as missing players to injury, they did something special for the opening tip of the consolation game to get a player on the floor as a starter just for the first second. Klein held off the jump ball and the big guy tapped it right to #21 for Ursinus, they then stopped the clock to sub him out. The fans were chanting MVP for him, so I assume that was an important loss which may explain their showing for the weekend. I was meanwhile chuckling to myself, complaining that "aw, c'mon, Ryan was gonna win that tip..."

Number 21 for Ursinus was senior guard Nick Shattuck (21.2 ppg, 6.2 rpg). Shattuck was just named a second-team d3hoops.com All-American this past weekend. As d-mac said, Shattuck hobbled through the tourney on two bad ankles, played on Friday even though he was supposedly something like only 50% or 60% of his usual self, and only took the floor for the opening tip on Saturday afternoon in the consolation game. The people in this room who dissed Ursinus without knowing that Shattuck was hurt didn't do their homework.

I assume I am being referred as one of the people that didn't do his "homework."  I knew that #21 was out and it was clear from the fan's support he was important - had even read the d3 feature before the weekend.  I was simply asking (and it appears that it has now been answered) whether he really made that big of a difference (and we are talking about almost forty points v Amherst, 20 v Hope).  Very disappointing to Ursinus to have their season impacted like that in the Final Four. 

Another poster mentioned that #41 usually plays better but had a bad weekend.  Fair.  Against Hope, however, #23 was the third big option for Ursinus.  No, I have not seen any of their other games all season.  For all I know #23 had his best game of the season and usually cannot hit the broad side of a barn.  But what I know is on Saturday, I would have played him until he needed a rest.  He was playing that well and kept bringing the team back in the game.  Always glad as a fan when the Ursinus coach took him out.

Before Saturday's game vs Hope, #23 (Matt Howell) played in 13 of 33 Ursinus games on the season.  In those 13 games, he played 65 minutes total (5 per game), scored 22 poinst (1.7 per game), and pulled down 7 rebounds (0.5 per game).

Michael Shema, #41, started all 33 games for Ursinus.  The Bears ran the table in the Centennial Conference (18-0) and got to Salem.  Shema averaged 8.9 points, 6.2 rebounds, and shot .621 from the field.

Playing Howell over Shema would be like Hope playing Dan Holt instead of Ryan Klein.  The suggestion here that Ursinus was somehow making a mistake by playing Shema is laughable.

And if Dan Halt had a big game for Hope - I would expect the coach to keep playing him.  I really would.  It is not a laughable proposition.  Its the truth.  Sometimes match ups work out that a player is better in a situation than another.  

I don't necessarily want to keep this thread going longer but I need to respond to your statement that this is "laughable."  After all, while you have clearly demonstrated that statistically 41 was the more consistent and the stronger option than 23 this season, I am speaking of this weekend.  In that vein, on Saturday had 23 stayed in the game, I, as a Hope alum, would have been very nervous.  As it was, 41 was fairly easy to control - whether that is because of a bad weekend, injuries, whatever.  

Clearly Ursinus didn't agree this season and played 41 a lot more - he has better stats.  But I have not heard why 23 was not used more this season.  I can tell he was not.  But at least on Saturday he should have been.  

[hope1]

i can not wait to see hope schedule for next year now we can watch the blast play with a couple of ex hope players playing

[Pat Coleman]

Some of the comments on final ranking are very interesting, especially when I recall the two D3 game announcers saying at half time (of Hope/WashU game) that based on the first half, "they would take either Hope or Wash U over Amherst" at that time.

Everyone on every halftime show is a voter, so apparently something happened in the final 20 minutes to change their minds.

[r.w. mcnickels]

Clearly Ursinus didn't agree this season and played 41 a lot more - he has better stats.  But I have not heard why 23 was not used more this season.

You can imagine my shock as a Centennial Conference fan venturing into the MIAA room and seeing an extended discussion about an Ursinus reserve post player...

The Ursinus posters in the CC room can probably fill you in better, but for what it's worth, I saw Ursinus twice this season and Howell barely saw the court in either game.  Shema developed into a very solid post option for the Bears, especially in NCAAs.  I'm not sure why Shema was so ineffective in Salem, but it looks like you guys think Howell has some potential.

Congrats to Hope on another Final Four.  As an F&M fan, I know the pain of that close-but-no-cigar feeling -- but it doesn't take away from a great season.