NAC

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

That is exactly the way it lays out.

You have the NESCAC at the top and then the NEWMAC, which is a smaller, very rich, not quite so presitgious but damned close, conference.

The LEC and the CCC have lately been battling out for bragging rights among the "other conference" one is private, one public.  They are pretty set, although there might be a change or two, I don't see anything too serious because they are scared of losing an AQ.

The GNAC has some good schools with academic chops that is working hard to improve its athletics.

Then you have a whole bunch of "others" with a huge range of mission/vision/academics issues.  It is those schools that need to get things together first and then let the changes happen up the chain.  If the GNAC really solidifies, then there might be no more hope for major reallignment.

However, if I hear things right, the GNAC is looking to drop a few schools, which would then spur the change.  Gordon is looking to get into the NEWMAC as the eighth school (for men).  Anna Maria would like to get out of the CCC and into a league in which it could be more competitive with what it has to offer.

You bring up the point about the NAC being a Maine conference and it is, which is leaving the MASS-CT-RI schools with less resources nothing to work with.  That is why I'm predicting two lower-tier conferences developing, one focused in the north and one in the south.

As far as I can tell, football has little implication on moves in NE; its just not a big sport.  Basketball is probably number one, with Soccer and Baseball being the other movers in the region.

[d3bballinboston]

i think you could see these teams as a new league in New england (newbury, daniel webster, mitchell, anna maria, becker,  lesely, regis, albertus magnus). 

[sully6827]

If I were named Grand Master of New England Division III for a day and could re-arrange conferences based upon a combination of things, mainly a break in public/private schools, and geography I would come up with

NESCAC:

Amherst
Bates
Bowdion
Colby
Connecticut College
Middlebury
Trinity
Tufts
Wesleyan
Williams

NEWMAC:

Babson
Clark
Coast Guard
Gordon
Endicott
M.I.T.
Springfield
Wheaton
W.P.I.

Little East:

      North Division-
Castleton State
Johnson State
Keene State
Plymouth State
University of Southern Maine

     South Division-
Eastern Connecticut State
UMass-Boston
UMass-Dartmouth
Rhode Island College
Western Connecticut State

NAC:

Husson College
Maine Maritime Academy
University of Maine- Farmington
UMaine- Presque Isle
St. Joseph's College (ME)
Thomas College
University of New England

WNEAC (Western New England Athletic Conference)

Colby Sawyer
Elms College
Green Mountain College
New England College
Norwich University
Southern Vermont College
Western New England College

MASCAC:

Bridgewater State
Fitchburg State
Framingham State
Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts
Salem State
Westfield State
Worcester State

SNEAC (Southern New England Athletic Conference....instead of the GNAC):

Albertus Magnus College
Anna Maria College
Becker College
Johnson & Wales University
Mitchell College
Nichols College
Roger Williams University
Salve Regina College

GBAC (Greater Boston Athletic Conference ....instead of the CCC)

      Metro Division
Emerson College
Emmanuel College
Lesley University
Suffolk University
Wentworth Institute
Newbury College

       Suburban Division
Curry College
Eastern Nazerene College
Lasell College
Mount Ida College
Daniel Webster College
Rivier College


I know everyone may not like this and feel that their "better" school doesn't belong with a "lesser" school.....even though often things work in cicles. But what does everyone think? I realize it will never happen, too many issues, forming new leagues, presidents agreeing, ego's, agendas, etc. But to me it makes sense...and hey, its only hypothetical

[d3bballinboston]

Here is my idea.. not much different.. my differences are in bold.

NESCAC[/u]:

Amherst
Bates
Bowdion
Colby
Connecticut College
Middlebury
Trinity
Tufts
Wesleyan
Williams

NEWMAC:

Babson
Clark
Coast Guard
Gordon
Endicott
M.I.T.
Springfield
Wheaton
W.P.I.

Little East:

      North Division-
Castleton State
Johnson State
Keene State
Plymouth State
University of Southern Maine

     South Division-
Eastern Connecticut State
UMass-Boston
UMass-Dartmouth
Rhode Island College
Western Connecticut State

NAC:

Husson College
Maine Maritime Academy
University of Maine- Farmington
UMaine- Presque Isle
St. Joseph's College (ME)
Thomas College
University of New England

WNEAC (Western New England Athletic Conference)

Colby Sawyer
Elms College
Green Mountain College
New England College
Norwich University
Southern Vermont College
Western New England College
Rivier College
Daniel Webster

MASCAC:

Bridgewater State
Fitchburg State
Framingham State
Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts
Salem State
Westfield State
Worcester State
[/b]Mass. Maritime Academy

SNEAC (Southern New England Athletic Conference....instead of the GNAC):

Albertus Magnus College
Anna Maria College
Becker College
Johnson & Wales University
Mitchell College
Nichols College
Roger Williams University
Salve Regina College

GBAC (Greater Boston Athletic Conference ....instead of the CCC)

     
Emerson College
Emmanuel College
Lesley University
Suffolk University
Wentworth Institute
Newbury College
Curry College
Eastern Nazerene College
Lasell College
Mount Ida College
Regis College (only if they go co-ed)

AWAC (All-Women's Athletic Conference)
Welleley
Bay Path
Wheelock
Pine Manor
St. Joe's of CT
Simmons
Smith
Mt. Holyoke
Regis College (if stay all female)

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I think you guys got the geographic issues right, but there are still some mission/vision issues that just won't work out that way.

The NEWMAC won't even give Endicott a sniff in the next two decades.  EC was a two year school just a few years ago.  The NEWMAC will need them to build a reputation and increase their academic credentials before they get in.  Even Gordon is on the edge at this point.

The other one I see is Colby-Sawyer.  No way they leave the CCC for a far less competitive league.  More likely is the CCC to drop a few schools (like UNE and AMC).

There has to be a consolidation of Maine schools, although St Joe's is too good to end up there.  You're still going to have some schools with longer travel schedules, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.  I'm more concerned about schools getting into leagues where all the teams will have similar commitments to their athletic programs.  It's ok to not be heavy recruiters, its just hard for an athletic program to survive when everyone else in the league puts more emphasis on it than you do (see Anna Maria).

[sully6827]

my only thought on that is that committments can change, you can bring in a new president with a new vision, a new coach, new athletic director, etc.... and change the landscape of a school's athletic fortunes.... it was not that long ago that WPI was not a very competitive team, and now they are becoming a D3 powerhouse... but geography, and the public/private breakdown will always remain the same

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

In my view, the NESCAC stays the same.  The NEWMAC adds Gordon soon, although maybe not this year.  The MASCAC has to stay the same since basically the State of Massachusetts has told them to do it this way.  I don't see the LEC changing either; they enjoy a pretty good reputation in the region and they are a really good fit together.

The GNAC now has 12 members, which is a number they'd like to keep, however, the addition of a travel date to St Joe's in Maine might make the Vermont schools and Albertus Magnus look elsewhere.

This is where it gets interesting.

If the NAC can lure UNE away from the CCC and Rivier and Daniel Webster from the GNAC (which the GNAC wouldn't be too sorry to see go), they can put together a seven team league in or close to Maine.  Presque-Isle might be an option, but they're already 3 hours from Husson and that's the closest school.  It's a stretch to think the Nashua schools will buy into this, but if the GNAC "encourages" them to go, it could work.

Then you have a western NE thing going on with Johnson State, Norwich, SVC, Green Mountain, Castleton, and Elms.  WNEC would have fit perfectly as the 7th team here, but with their move to the CCC (who knows why the CCC approved that; it makes no sense), they probably aren't coming.  You could pick up Becker, for example, or you could have the east and west function as divisions of one NAC, pretty similar to the current composition.  This is probably your best option: 13 teams with a 7 and 6 divisional structure (7 and 7 for women with Bay Path staying).

That leaves the GNAC with Emerson, Emmanuel, J&W, Suffolk, Mt. Ida, Lasell and St. Joe's.  Which is all they really ever wanted anyway.  Pull in a local team like ENC for eight. (They have Pine Manor for women and could add Wheelock for ten, although Wheelock isn't much of a program, it would make the numbers work out well for all parties.)

The CCC now stands as CSC, Endicott, NEC, Wentworth, Curry, Salve, Roger Williams, WNEC, Nichols, Anna Maria (who wants out) and Regis (women only, might be going co-ed).

Anna Maria, Lesley and Becker become leftovers.  Add Newbury and Mitchell, then pull Nichols, Regis and Albertus Magnus for 8.

That leaves a few women's only schools (Mt Holyoke, Smith and Wellsley stay with the NEWMAC and add Simmons for 8 men 12 women).

This is all predicated on a lot of things (the big one is Regis going co-ed), but it better fits the mission/vision of schools rather than just the geographic locations.  Do I think it will happen?  No way, but at least this model is realistic.  I just don't believe anyone would be willing to blow up four conferences and start from scratch.

After all that, the moves would look like this:

NESCAC: unchanged at 10.
MASCAC: unchanged at 7.
LEC: unchanged at 8.
NEWMAC: adds Gordon and Simmons, now at 8 for men, 12 for women.
NAC: adds Green Mountain, UNE, DWC, Rivier, SVC and Norwich; loses Becker, Lesley and Wheelock, now in two divisions 7 and 6 for men, 7 and 7 for women.
GNAC: adds ENC and Wheelock; loses DWC, Rivier, SVC, Albertus Magnus and Norwich, now at 8 for men and 10 for women.
CCC: loses ENC, Nichols, Regis, Gordon, Anna Maria and UNE, now at 8.
New Conference: Becker, Anna Maria, Albertus Magnus, Nichols, Mitchell, Regis, Lesley and Newbury, now at 8.
Independent: Presque Isle

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

my only thought on that is that committments can change, you can bring in a new president with a new vision, a new coach, new athletic director, etc.... and change the landscape of a school's athletic fortunes.... it was not that long ago that WPI was not a very competitive team, and now they are becoming a D3 powerhouse... but geography, and the public/private breakdown will always remain the same

A school's direction can change, but generally a school with a 100 million endowment has different priorities than one with a 10 million endowment.  That's what we refer to when we say mission/vision.

[d3bballinboston]

wow the most posts the NAC section has ever got!

[Ralph Turner]

wow the most posts the NAC section has ever got!

And all of them are good!

I will read them and any more tonight!

[Ralph Turner]

Thanks for the info.  I had completely forgotten the NEWMAC.  It does appear that the shuffling will occur at the bottom with only very selective cherry-picking occurring in the top-level conferences.

The thoughts on the MASCAC were interesting.  They could leave the NEFC, add an affiliate or two,  and have an AQ if they wished.  Your comments about football in New England are instructive.

The Little East has a nice compact 8 team conference.  Is there really that much momentum for the LEC to expand?

And poor Presque Isle...they are even more isolated than Sul Ross State.  Sul Ross is 5 hours away from 4 other schools, but at least you can zip down the interstate quickly.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The Little East has a nice compact 8 team conference.  Is there really that much momentum for the LEC to expand?

There isn't much incentive at all.  They have a solid foundation where they are.  In terms of athletic programs, teams like Roger Williams or Colby Sawyer might fit in for expansion, but then you have the public/private issues that come along with it.  I doubt the LEC is even thinking about shaking things up.  They've got a good thing there.

And poor Presque Isle...they are even more isolated than Sul Ross State.  Sul Ross is 5 hours away from 4 other schools, but at least you can zip down the interstate quickly.

Well, Presque Isle is about 265 miles from Bates and Bowdoin, 215 from Colby and Thomas, 160 from Husson, 200 from Maine-Maritime, 240 from Farmington, and about 300 from UNE, St Joe's and SMaine.

Those may not seem too far for a guy from Texas, but you have to remember that Presque Isle is 35 miles off Interstate 95, which I believe has a speed limit of 55, even though it passes through towns like T17-P12 and other unpopulated sections of the state that have just been named after grid squares on some cosmic map.  Technically you can move pretty quickly on those roads, what with the unihabited isolation and all, but you also have to be very alert for the moose.  Just north of Orono there is a sign that says "Moose Crossing, next 83 miles" or something to that effect.

The big problem for UMPI is not the distance to other d3 schools, but the fact that there are no other non-d3 schools close to them either.  UMaine is one of the closest, but its D1.

Google Maps says Husson is only 3 hours 21 minutes and although I haven't had a ton of driving experience up there, I would think 2:45 is about as quick as you could do it in a large passenger vehicle.

I think Sul-Ross had it about the same, in terms of isolation.  In both places, people are used to long distances for anything.

[Ralph Turner]

Sul Ross State has been a charter member of the antecedent TIAA and the ASC.  They are a known quantity, and the travel works both ways.  Yes, they are a state school, but the isolation does not convey any advantages that cannot be rationalized.  They have been a loyal member and shall continue to be a loyal ASC member.  Alpine is a beautiful city in the high desert at 4500 feet above sea level.  The dominant feature of the landscape is "sky".  There is lots of big money moving to Alpine and buying 10,000 to 100,000+ acre ranch sites.  They are developing a nice artists' community there also.

We visited Maine about 1992, to show our kids New England.  The travel up there impressed me as slow and more difficult than West Texas.  I am quite respectful of the challenge that they have

[All-around]

I am somewhat surprised that the GNAC let lasell and mt. ida in. Nothing against the schools athletic wise, but in terms of the academics. Also, I heard rumors in the past that Emerson was trying to get out of the GNAC. Academically wise Emerson is up there with Wheaton, Babson and those type of schools. May that be in the forseeable future?

[Ralph Turner]

I am somewhat surprised that the GNAC let lasell and mt. ida in. Nothing against the schools athletic wise, but in terms of the academics. Also, I heard rumors in the past that Emerson was trying to get out of the GNAC. Academically wise Emerson is up there with Wheaton, Babson and those type of schools. May that be in the forseeable future?

All-around, might the addition of Mt. Ida and Lasell be geared towards maintaining an AQ bid in "all" sports?

On an arbitrary D-3 continuum, 1 to 100, NESCAC might be 90's, NEWMAC high 80's.  The GNAC might be solid 70's.  If they were to lose one of their high 70's to another conference, they have to find replacements to keep the AQ.  That may be where Lasell and Mt Ida come in.  They were highest on the draft board, to use an NFL analogy.