FB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[dawg gone it]

tooth..you are one deep fella!

The problem with your theory is that committing PI isnt cheating in the sense you describe and give examples for.  Cheating, on your wife, taxes in the law practice are definetly no no's.  Teaching your young son to play without good sportsmanship is definetly wrong.

Committing a foul in basketball or being called for a penalty in football in not cheating, its just that, committing a foul.  I think a better distinction is that if you try to intentionally hurt a player to save a td, that is unforgivable, but committing pi doesnt go that far in my opinon.  Especially if it's in the Redlands v Oxy game.

[Browneagle64]

This sure is a tough call. PI or Touchdown??

If the FS/SS/CB knows that he is going to get burned, his 1st instinct is to not let the reciever get by any means.

In my opinion, if i were to teach this to a group of kids i would continue to tell them that they must not allow a reciever to get by. However, i would ask them to use proper judgement. In doing so, i hope that this will spark an understanding that If they do something stupid like intentionally doing a PI, some other kid will be going in for them. Just my opinion by the way.

[DawgFan1]

Sabertooth: I agree with your comments regarding "cheating". I have to agree with Football Fan-Attict also. However, the comment of whether it is coached or player desperation, here is my opinion. The Oxy DB's were constantly interfering with the forward progress of the receivers. I noticed this last year in Eagle Rock also. Redlands throws many long fade passes, timing passes between the QB and WR. Oxy DBs, many times doubling up on the WR, would "slow down" in front of the WR, stopping/ blocking his momentum, thus the pass was overthrown. This was done every time they doubled up. They got away with it, but I believe it is no different than not having contact after the first 5 yards. It should be a PI. Now, whether this, or grabbing the player to prevent a TD, is "coached" or a coincidence, you decide.

[Sabretooth Tiger]

tooth..you are one deep fella!

The problem with your theory is that committing PI isnt cheating in the sense you describe and give examples for.  Cheating, on your wife, taxes in the law practice are definetly no no's.  Teaching your young son to play without good sportsmanship is definetly wrong.

Committing a foul in basketball or being called for a penalty in football in not cheating, its just that, committing a foul.  I think a better distinction is that if you try to intentionally hurt a player to save a td, that is unforgivable, but committing pi doesnt go that far in my opinon.  Especially if it's in the Redlands v Oxy game.

Good points all . . . and the earlier point raised by Scandahoovian about intentional fouls in basketball made me really look at this.  Speaking strictly as a competitor, I've never given the bball intentional foul a second thought and have long subscribed to the theory that "if the ref didn't see it, it didn't happen."  And my gut reaction was the same as downtown's . . . I'd rather take the PI call than give up a td.

But then the dad/coach/teacher/philosopher in me started to think about the ethics.  "Yes my son, it's ok to break the rules against pass interference in order to save a tackle, but it's not ok to break the rules as to face mask tackles to save a td?"  

If I'm trying to teach my son the lead an ethical life, how do I teach him that it's "ok" to "cheat" (violate the rules) to gain an advantage sometimes, but not others?

A few crib notes before a test?  How do you explain to a child that cheating on a test is not ok, but that in competitive sports, it's ok to break the rules to gain an advantage?

Before now, I've never really given much thought to what appears to me to be the hypocrisy of the "intentional foul" until now.  How does the "its ok to break/bend the rules on the field" impact our kids when they go to law school or business school and start to run big companies?  Why is it ok in sports and not off the field?  What values are we teaching . . . what values are being adopted . . . what does that mean for society?

I see this little example at Ted Runner as a real metaphor, eye opener and worthy of serious thought and discussion.

Or maybe it was just pi.

tooth

[dawg gone it]

tooth,

There is a big moral and ethical difference between committing PI and lets say cheating on an exam.  I think that knowingly committing a foul in sports is ok.  For instance, what about on 4th and 1 when the offense lets the play clock run out trying to draw the defense offsides? Would you consider that unethical or cheating....of course not.  By pure definition yes it is, but from a practical sense, it's just playing the game and...committing a foul that you are penalized for. 

It's not the same as teaching your son to intentionally kick a kid in soccer, there is both a moral and a practical difference. 

My position begs the next question.....where do you draw the line?  My line is that in sports you never try to intentionally hurt someone, a hold or a grab on a PI call isnt going to do that, an intentional block in the back might and for that reason is unacceptable.

You teach your son to play hard and always try his best, try to win but make sure he understands it's ok to lose as long as you try your best and........ most importantly...have fun!  Thats what sports is really supposed to be about.

[downtown48]

I would tell them that the difference is if you cheat on a test you get thrown out of school, you cheat on the bar you get disbarred(sp??), you steal from the store you go to jail.  You push a guy on a long pass so he doesn't catch it, you get a 15 yard penalty, check yourself and learn from the mistake, make a play next time and then ride home on the plane with the national championship trophy instead of a lump of coal. 


Just don't try to hurt people and I see no problem with it.

[Tom Brady]

Bob-  Relax a little.  Nobody is really here to but heads with you......I dont think so  To show you this, maybe I will treat you to a spicy hot dog at the CLU/OXY game.  The hoops team or baseball team sells them and they are pretty darn good....that is if I can make it to the game.

I like the rules talk.  A lot of different points made and nobody is really right or wrong.

What are this weekends matchups?

[Sabretooth Tiger]

tooth,

There is a big moral and ethical difference between committing PI and lets say cheating on an exam.  I think that knowingly committing a foul in sports is ok.  For instance, what about on 4th and 1 when the offense lets the play clock run out trying to draw the defense offsides? Would you consider that unethical or cheating....of course not.  By pure definition yes it is, but from a practical sense, it's just playing the game and...committing a foul that you are penalized for. 

It's not the same as teaching your son to intentionally kick a kid in soccer, there is both a moral and a practical difference. 

My position begs the next question.....where do you draw the line?  My line is that in sports you never try to intentionally hurt someone, a hold or a grab on a PI call isnt going to do that, an intentional block in the back might and for that reason is unacceptable.

You teach your son to play hard and always try his best, try to win but make sure he understands it's ok to lose as long as you try your best and........ most importantly...have fun!  Thats what sports is really supposed to be about.

In my head and heart and for a practical matter I agree with everything you say . . . but I question whether it passes muster if put to the test from a logical, ethics based analysis.   And whether it might have a bigger impact than we care to admit.

I coach soccer (talk about the blind leading the blind, but I digress).  This weekend at my 6-7 year olds soccer game the ref came up to me afterward and congratulated me on the candor and honesty (naivete?) of one of my players who, when asked who last touched the ball before going out of bounds, smiled and said "I did."  She told me that even at ages 6-7 she sees kids flat out lying about things like "who touched the ball" to gain an advantage.  (Now that I think about it, it is probably that conversation that made me want to explore this discussion and react as I did to Fan Atic and Downtown's original exchange).  At any rate, now on the one hand, we can say "hey, if the ref didn't see it, not my problem" and chalk this up in the same category as intentional fouls . . . but do you think that these are values we want to teach our children.  I agree with the play hard and play fair school.  Fair meaning that if the rule says you can't interfere, then you can't interfere, period.  Mistakes happen, but teaching mistakes to happen means that they're not mistakes anymore . . . we're teaching cheating . . . just a little cheating mind you . . . because it's not ethical or moral to hurt someone . . . but as long as there is no physical injury . . . then it's ok to break the rules . . . . see where I'm going?

And I'm not so sure that I could reasonably face my child and tell him its ok to break the rules to prevent a score but no ok to break the rules against cheating in school.  What kind of example am I setting when I do that?  

Do I want my kid coached by someone that teaches him that breaking the rules to win is ok?

The answer to that is a big NFW.

[Pat Coleman]

Hey OXYMORON...We are just having a discussion about rules. That is what you do on a sports message board. NOBODY IS WHINING. If you cannot participate in a positive way, stay the hell OFF this message board!

Are you truly unsure why you keep losing karma?

[Sabretooth Tiger]

I would tell them that the difference is if you cheat on a test you get thrown out of school, you cheat on the bar you get disbarred(sp??), you steal from the store you go to jail.  You push a guy on a long pass so he doesn't catch it, you get a 15 yard penalty, check yourself and learn from the mistake, make a play next time and then ride home on the plane with the national championship trophy instead of a lump of coal. 


Just don't try to hurt people and I see no problem with it.

Hmmm . . . I understand . . . but where is the consistency?  Where is the character development?  What values are taught?  What's more important . . . . winning the trophy or playing fair?  What is playing fair?

Like I said, not simple by any means . . . and again, I would have agreed with you throughout most of my life . . . but now I'm looking at things through the prism of fatherhood and believing that my son will follow my deeds more than my words . . . and I can't get around the fact that cheating is cheating and rules are rules.

Now mind you, I'm a subversive and believe that bad laws should be broken and that sometimes wars have to be fought and I'd kill in an instant to save my family . . . I don't believe in following stupid rules that have no point or merit . . .

And yes, it's part of the game . . . acchhh . . . too much musing . . . must get back to work

[Gray Fox]

Good discussion!  Since we have expanded this to other sports what about:

Baseball - It's part of the game (but illegal) to get away with a spitball if you can, but not ok to cork a bat.

Tennis - Casual players have to call their own lines.  A bad reputation will spread if this is too consistently wrong.

Golf - World class players have to call penalties and stokes on themselves all the time costing them many thousands of dollars.

[(509)Rat]

IS it possible that you can teach your child to have strong morals and still give him the tools to be a good football player even if they require him to break the rules?  I think some of us are assuming that it is impossible to differentiate between football and the real world.  The best DB's in any level cheat any chance they get.  Their hands go immediately to the recievers hip, impeding his route but completely unseen by the ref.  Holding down an arm as the reciever and DB are side by side and the reciever tries to go up for the ball.  Good DB's know how to maximize their chance of breaking up the play without getting caught and drawing a PI call, they probably aren't ethical by any means but its just one more skill that makes them better than the others.  Now your 6-7 year old child probably wont be able to grasp the concept that sports and life are completely different realms with very different consequences for your actions...but I would like to think as high school athletes, college athletes, and adults we could see the difference.  I'm curious to see what I overlooked when writing this and await some type of rebuttal, debates are healthy and so far this one has made me think, thanks to whoever started this one.

[downtown48]

I can see your points and maybe I'll change my mind when I have a kid...I can see the lack of consistancy but I guess I feel like sports and the real world, while sharing many simularities, are two different things.

I don't know...  

P.S.

Tell that kid next time to tell the ref to open her eyes followed by "he touched it!"  

A "Scorpions 2006 League Champs" trophy would look great on the dresser next to the diaper bag and Tickle me Elmo doll!  

[downtown48]

Another couple of baseball examples...

**Rolling your shoulders and taking a pitch in the back.  Rules say you have to make an effort to get out of the way...but...

**Perhaps even more devious...we were taught, if you hit a ball straight into the ground at your feet, start to hop and limp like it hit your foot.  Foul ball.  With a two man crew in HS it almost always worked.

[Sabretooth Tiger]

IS it possible that you can teach your child to have strong morals and still give him the tools to be a good football player even if they require him to break the rules?  I think some of us are assuming that it is impossible to differentiate between football and the real world.  The best DB's in any level cheat any chance they get.  Their hands go immediately to the recievers hip, impeding his route but completely unseen by the ref.  Holding down an arm as the reciever and DB are side by side and the reciever tries to go up for the ball.  Good DB's know how to maximize their chance of breaking up the play without getting caught and drawing a PI call, they probably aren't ethical by any means but its just one more skill that makes them better than the others.  Now your 6-7 year old child probably wont be able to grasp the concept that sports and life are completely different realms with very different consequences for your actions...but I would like to think as high school athletes, college athletes, and adults we could see the difference.  I'm curious to see what I overlooked when writing this and await some type of rebuttal, debates are healthy and so far this one has made me think, thanks to whoever started this one.

But are they different realms?  Don't we promote sports for the character development?  Aren't we trying to teach our kids how to be good teammates and competitors to prepare them for "life?" 

If we teach our kids/players that it's ok to cheat without getting caught . . . and rationalize doing so by saying that we are giving them a skill to make them better than others . . . how can we be surprised or disappointed when they do the same thing in the classroom or in the workplace?

I have to say that I don't see athletics being separate . . . I see it as a metaphor and teaching ground.  And just what are we teaching?