FB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Sabretooth Tiger]

I can see your points and maybe I'll change my mind when I have a kid...I can see the lack of consistancy but I guess I feel like sports and the real world, while sharing many simularities, are two different things.

I don't know...  

P.S.

Tell that kid next time to tell the ref to open her eyes followed by "he touched it!"  

A "Scorpions 2006 League Champs" trophy would look great on the dresser next to the diaper bag and Tickle me Elmo doll!  

LOL 

[DawgFan1]

**Perhaps even more devious...we were taught, if you hit a ball straight into the ground at your feet, start to hop and limp like it hit your foot.  Foul ball.  With a two man crew in HS it almost always worked.

Downtown48...I like your coach. We never learned that one. I can think of several times I could have done this!

[redlandsfan]

"If you ain't cheating you ain't tryin!"  Pardon my wonderful english skills there, but I truly believe that.  DB's cheat all the time, its their job.  They need to see what they can get away with, and if the ref will allow them to cheat then they should milk it.  Playing Qb is the toughest position on the field no doubt, but playing corner is #2.  I have never played on the island, but I will tell if I did I would try to get away with whatever I could.

Offensive linemen are taught to hold as much as they can.  Grab the jersey and bring the d-lineman in close so the ref cant see the hold.  Its the same thing.  Every sport has areas where athletes take advantage of the rules, but thats what makes sports great...sometimes they get called...soemtimes they dont.  A simple PI call is not cheating to me in anyway....

I will be a good father someday, but believe me...I will be teaching my son how to hold all game if it benefits the team in winning!

[downtown48]

**Perhaps even more devious...we were taught, if you hit a ball straight into the ground at your feet, start to hop and limp like it hit your foot.  Foul ball.  With a two man crew in HS it almost always worked.

Downtown48...I like your coach. We never learned that one. I can think of several times I could have done this!

Yea he was a good one...sometimes guys would try to stretch it and look silly standing at home while the pitcher threw to first, but most of the time it was golden...the really good actors let out a yelp too!

[tigersports]

Sabretooth, the TD didn't fool the crew, just me.  My cohorts saw it all the way.

[DawgFan1]

"If you ain't cheating you ain't tryin!"  Pardon my wonderful english skills there, but I truly believe that.  DB's cheat all the time, its their job.  They need to see what they can get away with, and if the ref will allow them to cheat then they should milk it.  Playing Qb is the toughest position on the field no doubt, but playing corner is #2.  I have never played on the island, but I will tell if I did I would try to get away with whatever I could.

Offensive linemen are taught to hold as much as they can.  Grab the jersey and bring the d-lineman in close so the ref cant see the hold.  Its the same thing.  Every sport has areas where athletes take advantage of the rules, but thats what makes sports great...sometimes they get called...soemtimes they dont.  A simple PI call is not cheating to me in anyway....

I will be a good father someday, but believe me...I will be teaching my son how to hold all game if it benefits the team in winning!

Let me throw in another idea, one that I think Football Fan-attic hinted on his original post of this subject. He indicated he thought the "deliberate push" on the Redland's receiver was more than a typical PI call. However, the rules don't allow such a call. What if the rules were changed to allow something similar to the "facemask" call...incidental contact or flagrant violation. It would seem reasonable when a receiver is deliberately knocked down to prevent a catch, as opposed to just being bumped, it could draw a greater penalty and the referees can make the distinction...maybe a 20 yarder from the original line of scrimmage.

[Sabretooth Tiger]

redlandsfan said:

>>"If you ain't cheating you ain't tryin!"  Pardon my wonderful english skills there, but I truly believe that.<<
>>I will be a good father someday, but believe me...I will be teaching my son how to hold all game if it benefits the team in winning!<<

Here's what the NCAA says on the issue:

2006 NCAA Football Rules and Interpretations
Coaching Ethics

Deliberately teaching players to violate the rules is indefensible. The coaching of intentional holding, beating the ball, illegal shifting, feigning injury, interference, illegal forward passing or intentional roughing will break down rather than aid in the building of character of players. Such instruction is not only unfair to one's opponent but is demoralizing to the players entusted to a coach's care and has no place in a game that is an integral part of an educational program.

OxyBob

OB:

Excellent research and posting . . . good to see that I'm not crazy (though I'm not sure that the NCAA is the best way to prove it!)

Worth repeating (imho): "Such instruction is not only unfair to one's opponent but is demoralizing to the players entusted to a coach's care and has no place in a game that is an integral part of an educational program."

[dawg gone it]

tooth....are you bein'a wee bit philosophical maybe?........after all it's just football...right?   Whats a bit of pushing and shoving among dawgs and cats?

[(509)Rat]

But are they different realms?  Don't we promote sports for the character development?  Aren't we trying to teach our kids how to be good teammates and competitors to prepare them for "life?"  

If we teach our kids/players that it's ok to cheat without getting caught . . . and rationalize doing so by saying that we are giving them a skill to make them better than others . . . how can we be surprised or disappointed when they do the same thing in the classroom or in the workplace?

I have to say that I don't see athletics being separate . . . I see it as a metaphor and teaching ground.  And just what are we teaching?

I understand what you are saying about sports and life being in the same realm when it comes to children and agree with it.  If you look at my post though I said that a child wouldn't understand the concept of sports and life being different.  But his whole situation was brought up because of a COLLEGE football game.  So yes, you teach your kid to do the right thing when it comes to sports (don't break the rules, be honest, never flop to get a call, etc.) but what about your high school and/or college aged child...do you still tell him not to play physical against reciever?  Or tell him just let the reciever score a touchdown instead of making a play and giving up only 15 yards, even though it isn't the "ethical" thing to do?  I understand where you are coming from when it comes to teaching your young child but we aren't talking about children here.  We are talking about 19-22 year old guys who hopefuly have had a parent like you tooth who has taught them the difference between right and wrong while they were growing up.

[tigersports]

Hate to disagree with my boy Bob, but the UOR TD was on a jailbreak (I don't think I said "kitchen sink") blitz.  Oxy brought at least 7, left the middle wide open and it was exploited nicely by Saras and Lacey.

[wildcat11]

I've always wondered why it seemed like nobody was covering the Linfield WR corp during the 04/05 playoff games vs. Oxy......I guess the Tiger DB's didn't want to compromise their morality....   

[RFB]

dawg gone it said:

>>I know I said I was going to ignore you but...this is really the last reply<<

Thanks, I look forward to you not replying to me.

RFB said:

>>I sleep even better knowing that Oxy will be pulling a Laverne after this year.<<

La Verne is 1-3. You should be so lucky.

downtown48 said re the Redlands fans complaining about pass interference:

>>Are you kidding me...you can't be serious.<<

The NFL penalty for pass interference always has been far too drastic. It wrongly assumes that the receiver would have actually caught the ball. The penalty should not be based on that assumption. The NCAA has the rule right.

The Redlands fans want it all ways. First they claim the game would have been tied if only the receiver had caught the 60-yard pass on their first play from scrimmage. Then they claim the Oxy DBs intentionally interferred with the receivers. Well, what is it, Redlands? Your receiver didn't catch the ball when he was open. What makes you think he'd have caught it if not for the pass interference? Bunch of whiners.

OxyBob

That's not what I meant by pulling a Laverne. You professed your love of Google so I am sure you will figure it out.

[Sabretooth Tiger]

Hate to disagree with my boy Bob, but the UOR TD was on a jailbreak (I don't think I said "kitchen sink") blitz.  Oxy brought at least 7, left the middle wide open and it was exploited nicely by Saras and Lacey.

Dude,

You're dead on right, you called it a "jail break" and I could not remember the nomenclature . . . thus my "kitchen sink" and notation that those were my words, not yours . . . you guys are far to pithy for something so pedestrian!

[Sabretooth Tiger]

But are they different realms?  Don't we promote sports for the character development?  Aren't we trying to teach our kids how to be good teammates and competitors to prepare them for "life?"  

If we teach our kids/players that it's ok to cheat without getting caught . . . and rationalize doing so by saying that we are giving them a skill to make them better than others . . . how can we be surprised or disappointed when they do the same thing in the classroom or in the workplace?

I have to say that I don't see athletics being separate . . . I see it as a metaphor and teaching ground.  And just what are we teaching?

I understand what you are saying about sports and life being in the same realm when it comes to children and agree with it.  If you look at my post though I said that a child wouldn't understand the concept of sports and life being different.  But his whole situation was brought up because of a COLLEGE football game.  So yes, you teach your kid to do the right thing when it comes to sports (don't break the rules, be honest, never flop to get a call, etc.) but what about your high school and/or college aged child...do you still tell him not to play physical against reciever?  Or tell him just let the reciever score a touchdown instead of making a play and giving up only 15 yards, even though it isn't the "ethical" thing to do?  I understand where you are coming from when it comes to teaching your young child but we aren't talking about children here.  We are talking about 19-22 year old guys who hopefuly have had a parent like you tooth who has taught them the difference between right and wrong while they were growing up.

Nothing I can argue with Rat . . . but I still think it's a moral/ethical/character issue . . . when does it become ok to bend/break the rules?  I played ball, I know some of the tricks (ok, I'm waiting for the leather helmet comments . . . ) . . . and there's a difference between being physical and cheating . . . physical is absolutely fine w/i the rules . . .

And I guess that even at an older age, my preference would be to play by the rules.  All of this fits really directly into the art of mediation and negotiations (risk taking, trust, ethics, win at all costs) . . . and in most exercises, you'll find that tossing notions of ethics out the window when every gets as aggressive and "cheats" as much as possible . . . everyone goes down the toilet . . .

Competition w/i rules and with trust that your opponent will play by the rules yields the biggest collective gains.

Biggest short term winners?  The ones who cheat against someone following the rules . . .

[Browneagle64]

Tooth-----"I could not remember the nomenclature . . . thus my "kitchen sink" and notation that those were my words, not yours . . . ".....This just proves that you're getting old and lossing some memory. Like i said , one day all the grasshopper on this board will probabily be as old and forgetful like yourself...(Man, Just kidding by the way. )