FB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[DIIIghetto]

Long Time Reader & SCIAC fan, Coming over from D3Hoops.  A couple of pieces of commentary.

1.  A plea for someone in the Redlands contingency or to OxyBob to take the higher road. 
2.    It is great that Redlands and Oxy have so many faithful here.  Both programs can lay claim to being the cream of the conference. 
3.  From someone who started paying attention to the SCIAC in the 70s, I have always thought of Oxy when I it comes to SCIAC football.   Having said that, Redlands did find a way to send DW and his staff on almost a decade-long sabbatacal.  Fortunately for Oxy, the King returned.  Still, Redlands long string of success seemed to make football something of an institution in the IE and surely the pendulum will swing back.   
4.  Having said those nice things about Oxy and UR, let me issue report cards for post-season play:  Redlands  F; Oxy  C- . 
5.  Collins is undeniably special but might need a post-season run to go down as something other than a SCIAC legend.  Either that or he needs to pull a Vance.  I hope that he has a chip on his shoulder to show the D3 nation and not just the southland who he is.   
6.  Until we show something, the NWC owns us.  The gap between our conferences, especially at the top, is still great.  NWC fans, I'd appreciate it if you guys go back to your thread and focus on figuring out how to beat your second round opponent.
7.  Someone lay out the plan to bridge the gap between our conferences.  Is it just the traditional argument, resources and administrative support?  Please spare me the pathetic apologetic response someone gave me a few years ago on the SCIAC hoops thread about SCIAC schools caring more about academics and students caring more about extracirricular activities than the rest of the D3 nation.   As an outside observer I would comment that D3 football has an important differentiator from other sports in that if you look at the top 25, almost all of these schools seem to be big schools in terms of their student body sizes.  Almost all of the schools in the Top 20 dwarf Oxy and its SCIAC counterparts in terms of size. 
8.  I'm a big believer that there have always been some great coaches in the SCIAC, but it seems to me that we have never, and I mean ever, had a team that can match up to some of these larger schools with distinctly different profiles (I would argue that Oxy's elite 8 runs have been the result of great coaching finding a way to overcome deeper, better talent).
9.  Come to think of it, I'm not sure that in football you can ever pull a Hosiers-like upset.  The depth at so many positions seems so important.  Isn't that one reason why D3 teams never get even to show up at D1 football practice fields for practice games?  These institutions with 3,000 students seem to have a much better chance than schools with 1,600 to have just that many bigger, faster and stronger players. 
10.  OxyBob, let it go brah...
 

[Pat Coleman]

In the post-16 team bracket era, I'd give these postseason grades:

Redlands: C-
The Bulldogs came into the bracket as a Pool B team one year and an automatic bid the following year and went toe to toe with Linfield and St. John's on the road. Occidental fans may not have been paying attention because their team wasn't doing much on the national scene, but this actually did a great deal for SCIAC respect, playing well against two powers rather than getting blown out.

Occidental: B-
The Tigers got the first home playoff game in recent SCIAC history (with D3football.com columnist Keith McMillan in attendance) and won it against the NWC runner-up, then went on the road to knock off Concordia-Moorhead in a shootout before losing at Linfield. Last year's loss at Linfield gave back some of those gains, but it's still more than a passing grade.

[(509)Rat]

As an outside observer I would comment that D3 football has an important differentiator from other sports in that if you look at the top 25, almost all of these schools seem to be big schools in terms of their student body sizes.  Almost all of the schools in the Top 20 dwarf Oxy and its SCIAC counterparts in terms of size.

When you say "dwarf" do you mean a couple hundred more students?  Because thats about how many more students mt. union, st. johns, capital, wesley, whitworth, central....have than you.  And correct me if I'm worng but linfield has less students than Oxy.  Your argument is only valid when it comes to public schools that are d3, and even then you are ranked higher than most of those teams anyways.

But this does bring me to something that has bugged me about the Wisconson schools, and Rowan (I'm sure there are others as well).  All of the disadvantages of recruiting in DIII don't exist at these public universities.  Why don't many kids go DIII even though they could play and be competitive at this level?  
1. Money...a lot of kids just can't afford to go to a school whose tuition is between $20,000-$30,000 a year.  But the public schools don't have this problem.
2. Grades...believe it or not private DIII schools don't always let athletes into their school simply because they play football.  Yes, the competitive teams do figure out how to maintain a high academic profile while letting in many athletes who would not normally have the grades that the average student at the university does.  Once again the public schools don't have this problem.
3. Funds...I'm assuming this is an issue but I won't comment on it because I don't know enough about it.  Hoepfully someone else can enlighten me on the subject.

[DawgFan1]

The term hit and run really only applies to people who come from other boards. OxyBob is a SCIAC regular and is not hitting and running the way the NWC folks have been known to in the past.

Pat:

I know OB is a regular. I may have used the  term "Hit and Run" somewhat different than you describe. My meaning is Bob will be "civil" for a brief time, then start taking shots at UR, and then becomes "civil" again. Maybe the correct term would have been to state he has the Sybil personality in his responses.

[(509)Rat]

Also, 509 mentioned the tuition argument, which I also don't accept. Private school is expensive everywhere, and is not the exclusive province of the NWC and SCIAC.

Maybe I didn't make this clear enough...or maybe you didn't read my post close enough.  My tuition argument was about the recruiting benefits of the Public schools and how they dont have to convinve kids to fork out the money that the private schools do (which would include almost all of the schools in DIII not just the NWC and SCIAC).  Now some have enough of a winning reputation (see MUC, st. johns, linfield, etc.) that tuition probably doesn't really affect them as kids and parents will pay the money if their kid has a chance to continue to play football for one of the best DIII programs in the nation.  There are plenty of kids across the nation that could play football on the DIII level ut either can't afford tuition or don't have the grades to get in.  But who am I kidding, I'll never convince OxyBob of something that he appearently already disagrees with.

[(509)Rat]

Now some have enough of a winning reputation (see MUC, st. johns, linfield, etc.) that tuition probably doesn't really affect them as kids and parents will pay the money if their kid has a chance to continue to play football for one of the best DIII programs in the nation

Wait did I write this too?  Yup, funny how you conveniently left it out of your response.  And we are talking DIII where there are no scholarships making a DI example irrelivent.  I hope I don't lose my reasoning skills like this when I get old.

[DawgHeaven]

The difference between SCIAC schools and the rest of the country is JUNIOR COLLEGES.  If you have ever played SCIAC football then you would realize this argument.  Kids from the JC do not stick around during camp, there are always a few exceptions.  Why would a kid that thought he still had a legitimate shot at a schollie pay 30 large to play D3 football?
One more thing, if you go back over the years, I do not see the tradition SCIAC excellence that the Oxy fans are posting about.  One good player does not equal tradition.

[Pat Coleman]

The difference between SCIAC schools and the rest of the country is JUNIOR COLLEGES.  If you have ever played SCIAC football then you would realize this argument.  Kids from the JC do not stick around during camp, there are always a few exceptions.  Why would a kid that thought he still had a legitimate shot at a schollie pay 30 large to play D3 football?

Tell me why So Cal JC transfers are so different than ones elsewhere.

[RFB]

The difference between SCIAC schools and the rest of the country is JUNIOR COLLEGES.  If you have ever played SCIAC football then you would realize this argument.  Kids from the JC do not stick around during camp, there are always a few exceptions.  Why would a kid that thought he still had a legitimate shot at a schollie pay 30 large to play D3 football?

Tell me why So Cal JC transfers are so different than ones elsewhere.

Pat,

What I think he was trying to say is that there is no other JC landscape like California. There are over 40+ Junior Colleges that field football programs across the state. I might be wrong, but I doubt is it like that anywhere else in the country. Not sure what he meant about JC transfers not lasting in camp. When I played at Redlands we had many JC transfers and the majority of them were very talented.

[dawg gone it]

Pat,  they are not different but...there are many more of them...... that is the d3 dilema.  The Az JC's also recruit very heavily in CA.  

I think the tuition argument is a valid one.  It certainly made a difference to one of my sons friends who had the chance to go to a SCIAC school but even with financial aid couldnt make up the difference. He went to ....a JC.  

However, OB's position on the tuition issue isnt accurate.  The examples given are all D1 schools who, give full scholarships.  The amount of tuition is irrelevant.

Many athletes from Ca who were not D1 caliber would go back east and play in the 1AA's or d2-3's.  I think that if the SCIAC got more ink in the press and if they were marketed better, they would prove to be a better alternative.  Ca kids get to stay in Ca, parents get to see them play etc....

When my son was being recruited by east coast schools, one of the first questions asked was.....are you willing to leave CA?  I discoverd in talking to the coaches that Ca kids have the highest , drop and return to Ca ratio.  

[dawg gone it]

Oxy Bob said:

"By that logic, UCLA should out-recruit USC every single year, and San Diego State should out-recruit UCLA."

The cost of tuition is not an issue when you are being recruited by these schools and has nothing to do with how successful they are in recruiting.  The success of the particular sports program and other related issues are the key factors.  

If a middle class family with one child entering college and 2 waiting in the wings has a choice to make between paying 70% of 40,000 or 70% of 20,000.....which one do you think they pick? Even if the quality of education isnt the same, they may not have a choice.  I know several families that are in this position.  Not every family has unlimited options for college choices.  This also plays into why many athletes choos JC for a year or two.  They save thousands of dollars....athletics isnt the only factor.

D O.C. ....LOL...Very clever!

[Pirat]

Pat, could you give me your definition of "hitting and running" in the context of posting on D3Sports.com.  Do you and your team consider "hitting and running" to be a negative or a normal course of events that helps to develop a national interest in D3 football?

[DawgFan1]

DawgFan1:

>>Maybe the correct term would have been to state he has the Sybil personality in his responses.<<

Hello! You have reached the Mental Health Hotline. Please choose one of the following options:

If you are obsessive-compulsive, press 1 fourteen times, then get up and take exactly 20 steps to the bathroom, then wash your hands 5 times, then take exactly 20 steps back to the telephone. Repeat 10 times.

If you have multiple personalities, press 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.

If you are paranoid, we know who you are and what you want. Stay on the line. This call is being traced.

If you are schizophrenic, listen carefully and the small voice in your head will tell you which number to press.

If you are clinically depressed, it doesn't matter which number you press, because no one will answer.

OxyBob

Bob help!!! I tried all the numbers listed to talk to you and none of them worked!

In all seriousness, I hope your team does well in the playoffs.

Regards,

[Pat Coleman]

The difference between SCIAC schools and the rest of the country is JUNIOR COLLEGES.  If you have ever played SCIAC football then you would realize this argument.  Kids from the JC do not stick around during camp, there are always a few exceptions.  Why would a kid that thought he still had a legitimate shot at a schollie pay 30 large to play D3 football?

Tell me why So Cal JC transfers are so different than ones elsewhere.

Pat,

What I think he was trying to say is that there is no other JC landscape like California. There are over 40+ Junior Colleges that field football programs across the state. I might be wrong, but I doubt is it like that anywhere else in the country. Not sure what he meant about JC transfers not lasting in camp. When I played at Redlands we had many JC transfers and the majority of them were very talented.

California is also gigantic, right? Doesn't it have more of everything?

[dawg gone it]

I took it as you wrote it but, yes Oxy and UR are doing OK, but as tuition keeps on rising, it becomes more and more dificult to find good athletes whose parents can afford the difference between financial aid and the tuition.  Of course they have the option to bury themselves in debt with student loans...that isnt an appealing alternative though. 

UR is over $40,000 per year....60% or 70% of that is a big chunk of change for a middle class family to pay without mortgaging the farm or burying the kid in student loans.

I would imagine that the SCIAC isnt the only conference that has this problem.  We all know that what ever a similar education costs in any other state, its higher in sunny Ca.