FB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Gig Harbor Cat]

Cmon guys you all know its not cheating its called having the Edge !!!

[CRZK]

GHC:

"..its called having the Edge !!!"

Of course so is being juiced, roided, enhanced, and what ever else they call it today!

My late weigh in to this interesting topic is a strong argeement with the NCAA committee opinion as provided by OB.

What is the risk of allowing ethical violations?  Let's step out to another sport recently in the news.  Soccer.  At the recently completed World Cup there were an inordinate amount of fouls rating a yellow or red card.  Of the most blatent attempts to "get the edge."  were intentional faking of injuries or "dives" in attempt to get a call.

What is the result?  A lowering of standards, increase in lack of sportmanship, more frequent conflicts between competitors (in other words, fights), and in general decreased enjoyment of the game from the fan point of view.

Now it seems to me the issue that started this debate was the "intentional foul to prevent a scoring oppourtunity."  In that case I would tend to agree with something like the regular penalty along with a personal foul type of call.  If not mistaken in a case of PI that deliberately takes out a receiver it would be something like 15yds and an automatic 1st along with another 15 yds from the new spot of the ball.  So a 30 yd advance.

That ought cause a coach or a DB 2nd thought.

[Sabretooth Tiger]

Not to change the subject too much, but it should be noted that I was wrong about Oxy dropping to 12 this week, the Tigers remain steady at no. 11 in the D3 poll.  I failed to factor in Ohio Northern's big loss to Mt. Union to keep the Tigers in place after MHB hopped up the board.

Congrats to Whitworth for moving up from 14 to 12.

Linfield remains at 18. 

I'm smelling two NWC teams in the first round.  Cal Lu picked up a couple more votes this week as well . . . could it happen that the NWC and SCIAC will each send two teams to the dance?

Stay tuned  . . .

Now back to our debate, already underway.

tooth 

[Football Fan-atic]

Looks like I started a good arguement.  Going back a few pages...

Oxybob said.."The Redlands fans want it all ways. First they claim the game would have been tied if only the receiver had caught the 60-yard pass on their first play from scrimmage. Then they claim the Oxy DBs intentionally interferred with the receivers. Well, what is it, Redlands? Your receiver didn't catch the ball when he was open. What makes you think he'd have caught it if not for the pass interference? Bunch of whiners."

I'm not whining, Bob, I would be just as upset with a Redlands DB doing the same thing and judging from the Redlands receivers' (in general - I'm not singling anybody ouit here) past performance he probably would have dropped the ball anyway.  I was just expressing what was going through the DB's head at the moment.

As far as the pro's intentionally drawing penalties or the parallel to pro basketball players drawing fouls goes - I don't care of you are a pro or a pee wee player it still isn't right or good sportsmanship.  If you get beat try harder next time.  I'm just as guilty as anyone else.  if I get beat I feel like decking the guy and it's not right or moral.

I'm done on this topic.

[tigersports]

So, if I take this to its logical extreme,

1.  A basketball team can't foul in the last minute of play because that is a rule violation

2.  A football team can't choose to take a delay of game penalty instead of hastily running a play or burning a time out?

3.  For that matter, a baseball team that sacrifices an out to move a runner up is doing the same thing.

The crucial distinction in my mind is that the player was not trying to pull a fast one.  Cheating is breaking the rules with sufficient stealth to prevent getting caught.  The Oxy DB knew he would get caught, knew there would be a price to pay, and he paid it.  He made a valid moral choice between two unfavorable outcomes.  The cheater has no such dilemma.  A cheater wants it both ways -- allowing a favorable (or at least neutral) outcome without consequence.    (A foul causing injury is a different animal since deliberating causing is not only contrary to the rules but a moral affront by itself).

In our case,  The fault is not with the DB but with the rule maker.    Hobbes wrote that the penalty for societal offenses should not make it so that the penalty can be more favorable than the choice to commit the offense.  (i.e., the $10 parking ticket in downtown LA is worth breaking the rules since it costs 30 bucks to park anyway).  Had the rule been spot-foul (as in the NFL), the DB's choice would have been harder, but still not a clear choice of outcomes.    In soccer, the rule is that in such a circumstance the DB would've been red carded and his team playing a man down. 

[CarloRossiLep]

[/quote]

That's not what I meant by pulling a Laverne. You professed your love of Google so I am sure you will figure it out.
[/quote]

Do you mean Oxy's going to go to St. John's Minnesota for a playoff game and then trash the hotel after they get killed on the field?  No seriously what do you mean? I don't have the time to google stuff.

[DawgFan1]

GHC:



Now it seems to me the issue that started this debate was the "intentional foul to prevent a scoring oppourtunity."  In that case I would tend to agree with something like the regular penalty along with a personal foul type of call.  If not mistaken in a case of PI that deliberately takes out a receiver it would be something like 15yds and an automatic 1st along with another 15 yds from the new spot of the ball.  So a 30 yd advance.

That ought cause a coach or a DB 2nd thought.

This is exactly the same thought I was trying to express in an earlier post.  The referee can decide if it was flagrant or incidental, similar to a facemask call.

[DawgFan1]

CRZK said:

>>What is the risk of allowing ethical violations?  Let's step out to another sport recently in the news.  Soccer.  At the recently completed World Cup there were an inordinate amount of fouls rating a yellow or red card.  Of the most blatent attempts to "get the edge."  were intentional faking of injuries or "dives" in attempt to get a call.<<

I must protest the mention of soccer in a discussion about football. Soccer is not a real sport. It can't be a sport if a tie score is an acceptable outcome, or if the game is decided not by scoring a legitimate goal but instead with penalty kicks, which is like playing 9 innings of a baseball game to a tie and then deciding the winner using Home Run Derby. Every "foul" in soccer is the same: One player trips another player. The tripped player immediately plops to the ground as if just shot with a high-powered deer rifle. The referee rummages around in his shirt pocket and produces a yellow or red card, depending on the ref's mood, and points at the tripper, duly chastising him. While that's going on the tripped player writhes on the ground, his mouth yawning wide open, while he clutches his calf as if in excrutiating pain. A couple guys with a stretcher finally trudge out onto the field, but when they reach the tripped player he miraculously gets up, is all better, and is ready to play again. They continue playing the game, which ends up 1-0 or 0-0. Sorry, not a sport.

OxyBob

Bob...Kudos on this one. Your description of the injury acting is right on. Just think, we can apply the soccer solution for breaking a tie in football. Set the ball on a tee at the 10 yard line and let each of the 11 offensive players on each team try for a field goal. After everyone is done, the team with the highest score wins.

[dawg gone it]

I think tigersports' view is the most practical and I agree with him.  The NCAA is never going to come down on a db for committing PI to save a td, or a team taking a delay of game penalty.  Those kinds of examples are not what the rules intended to cover IMO.

[redlandsfan]

Oxybob,

I like how you quoted the NCAA rule book on cheating...but dont think for a second that Oxy linemen aren't being taught to hold...if you believe that your living a lie!

Everybody does it bob....even your Tigers!

[tigersports]

Oxy Bob, you sound one of those old fart sportswriters that rail against soccer, mainly because (a) foreigners are better at it than we are; and (b) you didn't grow up watching it. 

There are acts similar to this in all sports.  The basketball player that throws his arms in the air when a shot is blocked cleanly, then falls like, uh, he was shot, when touched by a player coming at him to draw a charge;  the outfielder that holds the ball up after trapping a ball; the hockey player that dives upon contact with a stick in his belly,  the receiver that holds up the ball that HE trapped on the ground, etc.   I agree that PK's is a grossly imperfect way to decide a game, but that doesn't mean the sport is not legitimate simply because 1 out of every 1,000 games is decided by this method.  And the notion of a tie invalidating a sport means that the first 127 years of college football render college football "not a sport." 

No one says you have to like it, Bob, but to call what I saw not a real "sport" is simply way off the mark.  I was at WC this past June and I have never been to a sporting event with more passion, spectacle and gravitas. 

[cawcdad]

I guess it's my turn to weigh in and offer a situation. I like tigersports description of cheating. The other fouling is just part of the game. Had a good discussion at lunch about this with a couple of students.

When coaching high school soccer (I can hear you now Oxybob  )a number years back, the opposing team was much better and had a player that wound up playing for the U.S. national team and winning an Olympic Gold and World Cup. Our plan was to play for a 0-0 tie (no PKs thankfully). This was mostly to be done with slowing the game way down by fouling the player in the middle third of the field. Let them take free kicks all day long. There were to be no extra physical or rough fouls or I would end my players game before the ref did. Was this cheating? Or simply devising a game plan within the rules of the game?

I also coached high school and club water polo. Most of the action is under water so in order to help the refs, players are taught to "sell it" when getting fouled to draw attention to the infraction. This is done at all levels. Is it cheating? Or again simply playing within the rules and parameters of the particular game?

[dawg gone it]

This subject can be debated all day long.......fouling, pushing, shoving etc. is just part of the game......it's not immoral or unethical to get called for holding or Pi it's just a penalty.  To equate it with cheating in life is comparing grapefruits and watermelons. 

Now onto next week.  The dawgs are very hungry for a win....pity the poor sagehens....they are going to get plucked!

Unless the PP fight song holds true...

"We're gonna fracture the foes of Pomona's might / ... We're gonna wail on their bods for the blue and white!" and "Our foes are filled with dread / Whenever Cecil Sagehen flies overhead!"

Now that would scare the living you know what out of me!

UR's offense comes alive, the defense dominates and the dawgs walk away with a 21 point victory and a mouth full of bird,  (hopefully not crow!)   

[Gray Fox]

Unless the PP fight song holds true...

"We're gonna fracture the foes of Pomona's might / ... We're gonna wail on their bods for the blue and white!" and "Our foes are filled with dread / Whenever Cecil Sagehen flies overhead!"

dawgs,
You've been googling again. Did Bob teach you how?

[dawg gone it]

Grey Fox......Bob who?

and....Fox old buddy....... dawgs is my former self before my legal name change.