FB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Sabretooth Tiger]

Since Oxy doesn't have a home game until October, I guess catching my first SCIAC game will tentatively be Sept 8 for the "Lute" Bowl in T.O.

Do fans actually show up to tailgate prior to the game (or is that a no-no)? 

Hopefully the fans that follow LA D3 football actually show up before the 2nd quarter (unlike LA Laker games).

Given that the traffic and parking at a Cal Lu football game is slightly less demanding and costly than at Staples or Dodger Stadium, I think you can count on early arrivals and timely departures.  Not sure what the tailgating scene is at Cal Lu . . . but it is a great place for fans to watch football as we can roam the sidelines at will . . . at least we still could as of last year.

[Sabretooth Tiger]

OK, now for bit of change of pace, just to stimulate discussion . . . here's a topic:

Michael Vick

whatcha think?

Should he be permitted to play?  Forever banned?  Something in between?  Let the justice system play out?  Screw that, suspend him now?  Victim of celebrity/race or amoral villian?

talk amongst yourselves . . .

tooth

[Gray Fox]

OK, now for bit of change of pace, just to stimulate discussion . . . here's a topic:

Michael Vick

whatcha think?

Should he be permitted to play?  Forever banned?  Something in between?  Let the justice system play out?  Screw that, suspend him now?  Victim of celebrity/race or amoral villian?

talk amongst yourselves . . .

tooth

What do you think?

[Fear the Poet]

if the rumors of torture,strangulation,drowning and electricution are true and he is involved, I think prison and lifetime ban from the NFL is appropriate.

I will wait for the all the facts to make a determination.

[Sabretooth Tiger]

Since Gray Fox asked, I'll proffer my views:

I think that the NFL and Atlanta Falcons need to cut him loose asap and that he should be banned from the NFL IF . . . the NFL in looking at all of the facts, thinks that it is more likely than not that Vick was involved in the dogfighting. 

The criminal standard is proof "beyond a resonable doubt" but that does not apply to civil disputes.  I think that the evidence against him, as reported in the media and set forth in the indictment persuasively demonstrates that he lied about his involvment to the Atlanta ownership and NFL leadership.  Between the lies and the heinous (in my view) conduct, he has no business playing in the NFL. 

These athletes, whether they like it or not, are role models for youngsters.  This type of behaviour cannot be condoned or tolerated.  It is vile, and giving it any legitimacy by permitting him to continue as a player is, in my view, unconscionable.

Peter King has a pretty good piece on it in today's MMQB at the SI website.

fwiw

tooth

[labart96]

I feel at the very least Vick needs to be suspended indefinitely by the league and the Falcs until he's acquitted from the charges (if he's not guilty).  The fact he's been indicted by a federal prosecutor means these charges aren't trivial.

However, if he is guilty (and based on the indictment and supporting body of evidence), he should go to prison and be banned for life from the NFL.

[wildcat11]

A federal wrap seems really hard to beat.  Do you think the feds would just go charge someone without having some pretty hard evidence?

He's a paid professional and needs to act like one even during the off-season.  If he wants me to go buy his overpriced line of shoes and buy his sports drinks then he should probably make better decisions on how he spends his time away from the field and the company he keeps.

In terms of football....maybe he should request a leave from the Falcons while this all goes down and if that means missing a full season...well....football should be the least of his worries right now.  If he doesn't stand down then I think the Falcons and/or the NFL are going to be forced to embarrass him even more.

As an owner of two dogs....I was disgusted when I read the 18-page indictment.  I'm all for letting the justice system to do its work and determine if Vick will be found guilty but I can't help to feel that Ookie was a heavy in all of this and I for one won't be watching that Falcons as long as he's taking snaps.

[Pat Coleman]

The only thing I'm going to say in all this is that the defense has no voice at all in an indictment. The prosecutor gets to put on all the witnesses he/she wants, right? I believe that's how it works.

[hatchet molly]

No real tailgating at CLU games. Not much of an area to do it. Admission is free though and the baseball team bbq's great hotdogs and polish dogs.

Word has come down that the CLU president has resigned. My inside source tells me that he was forced out because too much money was being spent on his research. Some of that money was supposedly earmarked for the football team. The rumors are unsubstantiated. Here's a link from the Ventura County Star.

http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2007/jul/21/regents-to-review-clu-presidents-contract/

[Sabretooth Tiger]

The only thing I'm going to say in all this is that the defense has no voice at all in an indictment. The prosecutor gets to put on all the witnesses he/she wants, right? I believe that's how it works.

If a grand jury handed down the indictment (which I think is how it works in federal criminal process) then defense may have the opportunity to address the grand jury, but that is the rare exception given that doing so will likely waive the protections of the 5th amendment against self-incrimination.  Therefore, more often than not, no defense appears at any pre-indictment proceeding.  And there is the old maxim that prosecutors could get an indictment of a ham sandwich if they wanted.

Having said that, I think playing in the NFL is a different question from his criminal defense.  (Like w/ OJ, found not guilty by a criminal jury, but found liable for the same act in a civil case).  So I think that the NFL/Falcon question is more appropriately examined from a business perspective, than that of protecting a criminal defendant's rights.

[labart96]

No real tailgating at CLU games. Not much of an area to do it. Admission is free though and the baseball team bbq's great hotdogs and polish dogs.

Word has come down that the CLU president has resigned. My inside source tells me that he was forced out because too much money was being spent on his research. Some of that money was supposedly earmarked for the football team. The rumors are unsubstantiated. Here's a link from the Ventura County Star.

http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2007/jul/21/regents-to-review-clu-presidents-contract/

Thanks for the info.  If there's good, Chicago-style polish dawgs available, I will definitely be there.

Interesting article re: the CLU prez.  I knew a guy who was also removed after a year of serving as college president for rubbing students and faculty (and ultimately the board of trustees) the wrong way for his statements and stance on under-age drinking.   

This is obviously a different case altogether, but I am surprised CLU would recruit a career scientist to be their head administrator.  I guess it makes sense in a way if they wanted to build a relationship with Amgen, but why not find a former bio-tech business guy vs. a research/technical guy. 

No offense, but a University is more like a business than most folks realize.  It's has a product, consumers, staff, burn rate and bottom line to staff in business.

[scandihoovian]

No real tailgating at CLU games. Not much of an area to do it. Admission is free though and the baseball team bbq's great hotdogs and polish dogs.

Molly's absolutely right about the baseball team's BBQ - I agree it's a notch better than the usual fare available at college sports events.

TGP if you're coming up with a group and want to tailgate I'd recommend the park near campus (on Olsen Road).  Picnic tables, BBQs, and you're not subject to the University's alcohol policy (if that's a factor)  You'd have to walk a little farther to the game, but it's not a bad option if you're looking to make a day of it.

[snoop dawg]

As to the tailgate...for the UR-CLU game you can all......well most of you ......can meet at my house for grillin' and chillin' , to use tooth's terminology, before the game.

As to Vick....he is an idiot.  That being said, the Feds don't prosecute unless they have a solid case.  Assuming that to be correct, the Feds have Mandatory Sentencing rules that must be followed.  And, if they have a strong case they will want to make an example of him, ala Martha Stewart.  So if he does go to jail should he be allowed, if he is still capable, to return?  If he does his time and he can still play......legally yes ........morally.......no.

Welcome FTP.


GO BULLDOGS

[coco]

I'll chime in on Michael Vick, as I'm a dog owner, too, and I read that revolting indictment.

He deserves to be suspended from more than just camp. He ought to be suspended until he's acquitted, if he ever is, which I doubt he will be. When he's found guilty, he should be banned for life. He's an embarrassment to the game. The criminal element needs to be removed from professional sports, IMO.

[speedybigboy]

Re: Michael Vick

I find it interesting that so far half the people taking the poll want him booted for life and half want to let the courts decide for now.

IMO, when we (the public) demand suspension for an alleged crime we are making a travesty of one of the basic tenets of what makes the USA great, that is, innocent until PROVEN guilty!  And we are guilty of treating the athlete different than the common man, a complaint heard often across the U.S (albeit in the reverse sense).

The attitude that because the Feds got an indictment "it must be true" is frankly, disturbing.  I've been called for 3 months Federal Jury Duty in my local jurisdiction starting next month.  While I will not see any Pro Athlete cases I could end up sitting in judgement on an alleged legislator corruption case, I hope that I and my fellow jurors go in with an open mind and listen to the evidence before making a decision.

I leave in the morning for a few days in the land of no cell phones or internet so I will be unavailable to respond.  I shall return to defend my negative Karma sometime next week  .

p.s.  I think Michael Vick is a punk and if I was a betting man, which I'm not  , I'd bet he did it.