FB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Pat Coleman]

IMO, when we (the public) demand suspension for an alleged crime we are making a travesty of one of the basic tenets of what makes the USA great, that is, innocent until PROVEN guilty!  And we are guilty of treating the athlete different than the common man, a complaint heard often across the U.S (albeit in the reverse sense).

The NFL is a private institution, however. It isn't bound by the Constitution.

[downtown48]

IMO, when we (the public) demand suspension for an alleged crime we are making a travesty of one of the basic tenets of what makes the USA great, that is, innocent until PROVEN guilty!  And we are guilty of treating the athlete different than the common man, a complaint heard often across the U.S (albeit in the reverse sense).

The NFL is a private institution, however. It isn't bound by the Constitution.

Exactly!  The basic tenet applies to jail time and losing your freedom.  It does not apply to embarrassing the hell out of your private employer.  For that you can be fired immediately.  Let's not forget, this isn't Ron Mexico's first time using questionalble judgement.  He's proving he's cut from the same cloth as his jackass brother.

[Sabretooth Tiger]

Re: Michael Vick

I find it interesting that so far half the people taking the poll want him booted for life and half want to let the courts decide for now.

IMO, when we (the public) demand suspension for an alleged crime we are making a travesty of one of the basic tenets of what makes the USA great, that is, innocent until PROVEN guilty!  And we are guilty of treating the athlete different than the common man, a complaint heard often across the U.S (albeit in the reverse sense).

The attitude that because the Feds got an indictment "it must be true" is frankly, disturbing.  I've been called for 3 months Federal Jury Duty in my local jurisdiction starting next month.  While I will not see any Pro Athlete cases I could end up sitting in judgement on an alleged legislator corruption case, I hope that I and my fellow jurors go in with an open mind and listen to the evidence before making a decision.

I leave in the morning for a few days in the land of no cell phones or internet so I will be unavailable to respond.  I shall return to defend my negative Karma sometime next week  .

p.s.  I think Michael Vick is a punk and if I was a betting man, which I'm not  , I'd bet he did it.

Speedybigboy:

Don't know if you read my earlier posts, but I tried to address the "innocent until proven guilty" issue at the outset.  Let's consider a few things:

1.  I don't think Pacman Jones has been found guilty of anything yet, do you disagree with his suspension?

2.  Please note that this discussion arises months after the first media reports of his implication with dogfighting.  It is not a "rush to judgment" like, for example, the decision by Duke to suspend the Lacrosse players implicated by a wacko DA more interested in reelection than in justice.

3.  "Treating athletes differently" . . . hmmm . . . Vick is earning what, about 130 million in his current contract, is a public representative of the NFL and Atlanta Falcons, and is idolized by millions of fans, many of whom are children.  What if a teacher at your child's school (if you're a parent) were accused of this same conduct?  Would you be comfortable leaving your kid in that teacher's care?  Should the school let the teacher remain in the classroom "while the wheels of justice turn?"  

4.  And by the way, I'm no law and order freak nor have I drunk the fed koolaid.  Indeed, I'm a former criminal defense lawyer and a "liberal."  I think that Jose Padilla is an innocent man being railroaded by an absolutely corrupt executive . . . better stop there, this is a football board and my politics tend to run against the trend . . . but I hope you get my point.  Vick is not an impoverished, barely literate, muslim whose been held w/o counsel for over three years being tried based on irrelevant and inflammatory evidence or documents whose origin cannot be proved.  He is, rather, a rich sociopath who the facts seem to demonstrate has at least participated in dogfighting for years.  I don't care whether he is guilty of a crime, he has demonstrated moral turpitude for which he should be fired . . . imnsho.

5.  "Let it play out . . . " . . . and then what?  OJ was found not guilty, but I don't think you'll find him embraced by the NFL today, tomorrow or ever again.

I don't want Vick thrown in prison w/o due process. And remember, that a finding of "not guilty" does not mean he is innocent, it means that the government could not meet it's burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.  That is proper in a criminal context.  But in a business context, where image is critical, only a bonehead would let this guy remain employed, cuz he's sure as sh** going to be damaging to his employer.

my 12 cents worth

and no negative karma for you, I'll give you a plus for jumping in with your view in a reasonable manner and w/o vitriol or picking on any parents in the community.    (the winks are to my old friend).

cheers,

tooth

[Gray Fox]

Should there be any difference between how Vick and Tim Donaghy  are handled by their leagues?

After all, both are innocent until proven guilty.

[Fear the Poet]

hello all, I'm new to the board and in the process of slowly weening myself off of High School football and focusing on College Ball. My son will be an incoming freshman football player at Whittier this year.
I look forward to a fun year.
thanks

Fear the Poet, welcome to the board. Let me understand. You are merely the father of a son who is going to play football for Whittier? That's it? So you're not the father of a daughter who's going to be a student at Whittier, and who just happens to be the childhood friend of a Whittier recruit whose career you have followed in minute detail from its inception in Pop Warner through high school, and, according to you, is supposedly the second coming of Reggie Bush and likely savior of the Whittier football program, but who will instead turn out to be your son?

Gee, I feel let down.

FTP = Fear the Poet

John Greenleaf Whittier's poetry was criticized for numerous technical flaws, such as clumsy prose and faulty rhyme schemes, which is very similar to Whittier football, which is known for clumsy throws and faulty line schemes.

OxyBob

thanks for the welcome....you Oxy guys are sure witty. Now I see why all the smart guys go there.

I hope my son can be a part of the return to glory of Whittier football. Either way, I'll have fun watching. ...and we'll try to keep you under 30 points in the fourth quater this season

[Sabretooth Tiger]

I hope my son can be a part of the return to glory of Whittier football.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=2366
http://www.whittiergate.com/p12nixon.htm

Sorry, but when a slow fat one is lobbed over the plate, I can't help myself.

See you at the battle for "the shoes."

Of course, I confess that today I find myself hoping that we can find a return to the relative glory and high (comparitively speaking) ethical standards of the Nixon White House

cheers,

tooth

[Fear the Poet]

I hope my son can be a part of the return to glory of Whittier football.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=2366
http://www.whittiergate.com/p12nixon.htm

Sorry, but when a slow fat one is lobbed over the plate, I can't help myself.

See you at the battle for "the shoes."

Of course, I confess that today I find myself hoping that we can find a return to the relative glory and high (comparitively speaking) ethical standards of the Nixon White House

cheers,

tooth

as I told Coach Hammer after he informed me that Nixon was a THIRD string fullback for the Poets........"apparently he was a better Fullback than president"

remember, I'm a rookie and learning all the phrases and traditions...what is the battle of the shoes?

[Pat Coleman]

You have noted the obvious: Oxy Tigers are all naturally witty and smart ...

Don't forget humble.

[Fear the Poet]

You have noted the obvious: Oxy Tigers are all naturally witty and smart ...

Don't forget humble.

they are better than everyone else, and not afraid to tell you so. 

[Gray Fox]

You have noted the obvious: Oxy Tigers are all naturally witty and smart ...

Don't forget humble.

they are better than everyone else, and not afraid to tell you so. 

Are you employed by snoop dawg?

[Sabretooth Tiger]

what is the battle of the shoes?

"The Shoes" are the bronzed boots that comprise the perennial trophy that goes to the winner of the annual Oxy v. Whittier football game.

"[T]he Shoes, a bronzed pair of shoes mounted on a wooden pedestal that is the symbol of [Oxy's] rivalry with Whittier, which also dates to 1895 but spans only [97] meetings."

tooth

[Sabretooth Tiger]

You have noted the obvious: Oxy Tigers are all naturally witty and smart ...

Don't forget humble.

In the words of the brilliant and talented Mac Davis:

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way
I can't wait to look in the mirror 'cause I get better lookin' each day
To know me is to love me, I must be a hell of a man
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble, but I'm doin' the best that I can

8)

[Gray Fox]

  http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2006/11/10/old-funky-knickers/

[Fear the Poet]

what is the battle of the shoes?

"The Shoes" are the bronzed boots that comprise the perennial trophy that goes to the winner of the annual Oxy v. Whittier football game.

"[T]he Shoes, a bronzed pair of shoes mounted on a wooden pedestal that is the symbol of [Oxy's]rivalry with Whittier, which also dates to 1895 but spans only [97] meetings."

tooth

thank you for the info, I'm learning new things each day..I would appreciate it if you have them shined before giving them back on Nov 10th.

[RFB]

what is the battle of the shoes?

"The Shoes" are the bronzed boots that comprise the perennial trophy that goes to the winner of the annual Oxy v. Whittier football game.

"[T]he Shoes, a bronzed pair of shoes mounted on a wooden pedestal that is the symbol of [Oxy's]rivalry with Whittier, which also dates to 1895 but spans only [97] meetings."

tooth

thank you for the info, I'm learning new things each day..I would appreciate it if you have them shined before giving them back on Nov 10th.

You do know that Whittier is known as *hittier? I'll let you fill in the first letter.