FB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[Pat Coleman]

Yeah -- I think the highest you can go, reasonably, in football is 10 teams with the talent to win it all. And that's a stretch.

In basketball, we could say 20 have the talent. There were about 16 teams this year that I thought had a reasonable shot at it when the tournament started.

[Sabretooth Tiger]

However, the league isn't really recognized that much in Southern California and needs to do a better job keeping the talent that is in SoCal . . . it might be time for the SCIAC to start caring about success in the playoffs. Just an idea. SoCal is incredibly rich in talent, SCIAC teams should be able to retain more of the talent on a consistent basis. . . . . Whoever figures out the formula to doing more than just winning the SCIAC every year... he'll be much beloved by all of us who want to see the SCIAC succeed.

You speak of the SCIAC as though it behaves as a cohesive and singular unit, rather than being a affiliation between schools with widely ranging priorities and resources.

Winning national championships is terrific . . . but will not ever (in my estimation) be the principal/driving goal in any athletic program at Claremont, Pomona or Oxy.  Whittier doesn't have the resources, and I think that LaVerne may be in the same boat.  The only schools that have the resources and possible drive to pursue that kind of goal are Redlands and Cal Lu . . . and any such drive would likely require a consensus between the athletic department, overall faculty and administration on putting resources and an emphasis on such a goal. 

The administrations and faculty at Claremont, Pomona and Oxy would never coalesce behind a "national championship" as a priority in funding, admissions and overall operations of the colleges.  Frankly, I would hope that none of the SCIAC schools adopt that as a paradigm.  Athletics is fun as a part of the overall college experience, but elevating priorities to that degree is not what I would consider sound value judgment.

I'm going to guess that even our friends at Linfield, as the most dominant left coast football program around, don't operate internally with a goal of national championships, but rather that the institutions extraordinary success comes from the more ethereal notion of culture, mystique, success building on success, driven alumni support in terms of $$ donated specifically to football and so forth.

So I gotta disagree with you ECS . . . national championships . . . in any sport (most recently at Oxy, women's water polo) . . . are terrific . . . but to make attaining such an institutional goal, rather than a nice "get" when the stars align, would be a misplaced priority in my book.

tooth

[RFB]

[Scandi Places on Tee]

I am pretty sure we've been told such snobbery is the reason we fail to win national championships.

[/Scandi places on Tee]

[WC11 knocks it out of ball park] Naw...it's more of the lack of national championship level talent. [/WC11 knocks it out of ball park]

WC11-
You're welcome!

And thanks for the clarification, Bob and I were becoming increasingly sure that the real problem was all of the traveling...

Eh... truth be told only maybe 20 teams in all of DIII have championship talent. It is sad that the SCIAC doesn't have MORE talent. I think it is a relatively talented league. However, the league isn't really recognized that much in Southern California and needs to do a better job keeping the talent that is in SoCal. I don't know what the recruiting rules are for DIII (anymore) and I never knew what the rules are for the SCIAC. However, the lack of success recently (sans Team Collins, I mean Oxy), means that if it is possible, it might be time for the SCIAC to start caring about success in the playoffs. Just an idea. SoCal is incredibly rich in talent, SCIAC teams should be able to retain more of the talent on a consistent basis.
Back to the original point, there are very few teams who consistently have the talent necessary to make a run. If I could figure out how to build a team like that... with short term success and longevity, I would already be a Head Coach.... that or GM and Manager of the Yankees (Hank Steinbrenner can kiss my a$$).
Whoever figures out the formula to doing more than just winning the SCIAC every year... he'll be much beloved by all of us who want to see the SCIAC succeed.

This issue has been discussed many times before. The big problem is California has over 100 Junior College football programs. More than half of those reside in SoCal. How many jc programs are there in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Pacific NW, or the East Coast? There are just more options to play football in California. Especially at a difference of 20 dollars a unit compared to 40K a year. Sure the SCIAC should do better in recruiting but the JC issue is a big one.

[d-train]

Where do they all go after those 2 years?

[RFB]

Where do they all go after those 2 years?

Redlands has had some very good transfers over the years, but most I would say go DI, DIAA, DII. The remaning players probably look at DIII or quit football. So how many JC programs are in the Pacific NW??

[d-train]

Where do they all go after those 2 years?

Redlands has had some very good transfers over the years, but most I would say go DI, DIAA, DII. The remaning players probably look at DIII or quit football. So how many JC programs are in the Pacific NW??

I don't doubt the JC influence is something of an issue for the SCIAC schools. I can imagine a number of 18 year-olds opting for cheaper credits and holding out that small hope that they'll land a scholarship somewhere after developing for a few more years at a JC.

But there's a couple of factors that (at least in my mind) make this far less of an issue than you've implied. First, certainly not all of those kids would academically qualify in the SCIAC, would they? For most of the pool of prospective D-3 student-athletes, I'd think the quality of academics play some type of role in their college choice. Second, D-3's everywhere have to sell the merits of their school and program to kids who are thinking it's "D-1 or hang up the cleats".  Ditto on the tuition difference (to a smaller degree). Third, on a per-capita basis, CA has way fewer 4-year college football programs than most states (probably any state). We may not have a JC football program in Oregon, but we have the same number of D-2 programs you have in CA and twice the NAIA programs with only a fraction of the population. That should off-set some of the influence. Fourth, some of those same players should be available to SCIAC programs after their 2-year stints in a JC, right?    

[RFB]

Where do they all go after those 2 years?

Redlands has had some very good transfers over the years, but most I would say go DI, DIAA, DII. The remaning players probably look at DIII or quit football. So how many JC programs are in the Pacific NW??

I don't doubt the JC influence is something of an issue for the SCIAC schools. I can imagine a number of 18 year-olds opting for cheaper credits and holding out that small hope that they'll land a scholarship somewhere after developing for a few more years at a JC.

But there's a couple of factors that (at least in my mind) make this far less of an issue than you've implied. First, certainly not all of those kids would academically qualify in the SCIAC, would they? For most of the pool of prospective D-3 student-athletes, I'd think the quality of academics play some type of role in their college choice. Second, D-3's everywhere have to sell the merits of their school and program to kids who are thinking it's "D-1 or hang up the cleats".  Ditto on the tuition difference (to a smaller degree). Third, on a per-capita basis, CA has way fewer 4-year college football programs than most states (probably any state). We may not have a JC football program in Oregon, but we have the same number of D-2 programs you have in CA and twice the NAIA programs with only a fraction of the population. That should off-set some of the influence. Fourth, some of those same players should be available to SCIAC programs after their 2-year stints in a JC, right?    

Great points and I agree. When I was at Redlands we had many, very good transfers. I have been told that Redlands has really tightened admissions and that the Redlands coaches have had trouble getting desired transfers in. This was not the case when I was there.

[stealth]

Added point: There is just so many more things to do 24x7 outside of organized sports in the SoCal area and for the most part in the greater West region. So there is a natural dispersion of talent. In other parts of the country, midwest, deep south and east coast the weather, geography and mentality play big roles in who goes where and why. The pockets of talent are much more specifically defined and deeper. Lots of them grow up eating, sleeping and drinking their sport handed down from generation to generation.  Go to Texas on Friday nights during Football season and see a high school game you'll understand. Not that many native Cal folk who have been born, raised and still live in thier community. Not saying that's a bad thing just my observation having traveled many places in this great land for sporting and cultural events.

Where do they all go after those 2 years?

Redlands has had some very good transfers over the years, but most I would say go DI, DIAA, DII. The remaning players probably look at DIII or quit football. So how many JC programs are in the Pacific NW??

I don't doubt the JC influence is something of an issue for the SCIAC schools. I can imagine a number of 18 year-olds opting for cheaper credits and holding out that small hope that they'll land a scholarship somewhere after developing for a few more years at a JC.

But there's a couple of factors that (at least in my mind) make this far less of an issue than you've implied. First, certainly not all of those kids would academically qualify in the SCIAC, would they? For most of the pool of prospective D-3 student-athletes, I'd think the quality of academics play some type of role in their college choice. Second, D-3's everywhere have to sell the merits of their school and program to kids who are thinking it's "D-1 or hang up the cleats".  Ditto on the tuition difference (to a smaller degree). Third, on a per-capita basis, CA has way fewer 4-year college football programs than most states (probably any state). We may not have a JC football program in Oregon, but we have the same number of D-2 programs you have in CA and twice the NAIA programs with only a fraction of the population. That should off-set some of the influence. Fourth, some of those same players should be available to SCIAC programs after their 2-year stints in a JC, right?    

[DutchFan2004]

Added point: There is just so many more things to do 24x7 outside of organized sports in the SoCal area and for the most part in the greater West region. So there is a natural dispersion of talent. In other parts of the country, midwest, deep south and east coast the weather, geography and mentality play big roles in who goes where and why. The pockets of talent are much more specifically defined and deeper. Lots of them grow up eating, sleeping and drinking their sport handed down from generation to generation.  Go to Texas on Friday nights during Football season and see a high school game you'll understand. Not that many native Cal folk who have been born, raised and still live in thier community. Not saying that's a bad thing just my observation having traveled many places in this great land for sporting and cultural events.

Where do they all go after those 2 years?

Redlands has had some very good transfers over the years, but most I would say go DI, DIAA, DII. The remaning players probably look at DIII or quit football. So how many JC programs are in the Pacific NW??

I don't doubt the JC influence is something of an issue for the SCIAC schools. I can imagine a number of 18 year-olds opting for cheaper credits and holding out that small hope that they'll land a scholarship somewhere after developing for a few more years at a JC.

But there's a couple of factors that (at least in my mind) make this far less of an issue than you've implied. First, certainly not all of those kids would academically qualify in the SCIAC, would they? For most of the pool of prospective D-3 student-athletes, I'd think the quality of academics play some type of role in their college choice. Second, D-3's everywhere have to sell the merits of their school and program to kids who are thinking it's "D-1 or hang up the cleats".  Ditto on the tuition difference (to a smaller degree). Third, on a per-capita basis, CA has way fewer 4-year college football programs than most states (probably any state). We may not have a JC football program in Oregon, but we have the same number of D-2 programs you have in CA and twice the NAIA programs with only a fraction of the population. That should off-set some of the influence. Fourth, some of those same players should be available to SCIAC programs after their 2-year stints in a JC, right?    

I don't think that this is a valid point.  Being a father of four boys son#1 had 9 varsity letters in 4 sports,  son #2 had 13 letters in 5 sports earning a letter in track and tennis in the same year during the same season.  son #3 had 9 letters in four sports, and  son #4 had 15 letters in 5 sports and he earned a letter in tennis and track the same year as well.  #4 son was all district/all state in football, and all conference in baseball. You do not have to sacrifice one sport for another.  Coming from a 1A football, 2A basketball, 1A tennis, 2A track, and 2A baseball school if these kids didn't play multiple sports the school would not have enough athletes or be as successful as they are.  The small states such as Iowa who do not have the numbers seem to have much success with the kids participating in multiple sports.  Did you think that there may be a better work ethic in other areas of the country?  I am not saying that we in Iowa do have a better work ethic just I think there are other factors than there is more to do in western US.  I know many of the Central players played multiple sports in HS.  I think as discussed on the IIAC board that many kids decide to just simply not play college sports.  They think that they are not good enough or that they were slighted by not getting a scholarship offer so they decide to go to a public university that costs less.  The outside activities that are offered by SoCal may mean that the kids just do not want to expend the effort it takes.  IMHO it takes the same effort to be a champion In D3 as it does to be in D2 or even D1.  I know that my son worked out every day threw the ball every day just like a D1 player.  We didn't have spring ball but still he was out there on the field daily during the spring with the receivers throwing every day.  May be the distractions are powerful but if they are that powerful on those players would they be the best player for their team if they are that easily distracted.  Each player has to decide if they want to put in the time to be successful to me that is the key.

[Klopenhiemer]

The small states such as Iowa who do not have the numbers seem to have much success with the kids participating in multiple sports.

What is the basis of that statement? Do you have some objective data, or is it just purely anecdotal?

Did you think that there may be a better work ethic in other areas of the country? 

Uh, no. That just sounds like Hawkeye State hubris to me.

OxyBob

OB, then why do your corporations head to career fairs in the midwest and gobble up soon to be college gradutes?  Why did I interview multiple nation wide firms for jobs in CA, and they always told me they loved sending midwest kids to the west coast because of their work ethic. 

I guess they were just brainwashed by our Hawkeye state motto right?

[wildcat11]

OB, then why do your corporations head to career fairs in the midwest and gobble up soon to be college gradutes?  Why did I interview multiple nation wide firms for jobs in CA, and they always told me they loved sending midwest kids to the west coast because of their work ethic. 

I guess they were just brainwashed by our Hawkeye state motto right?

The evil corporations know they can get those mid-west college grads for pennies on the dollar in salary or they just compensate them with PBR and boxes of corn meal.

[DutchFan2004]

The small states such as Iowa who do not have the numbers seem to have much success with the kids participating in multiple sports.

What is the basis of that statement? Do you have some objective data, or is it just purely anecdotal?

Did you think that there may be a better work ethic in other areas of the country? 

Uh, no. That just sounds like Hawkeye State hubris to me.

OxyBob

Did you even read the following line in the second quote?  The only evidence I have is that the high school that my boys went to has the third best GPA's in the state for university students and the grade point averages of the kids that were involved in extra ciricular activities were a full 1 point higher than kids that were not involved in any of the ECA's.  That is a fact you can not deny. 

[Klopenhiemer]

OB, then why do your corporations head to career fairs in the midwest and gobble up soon to be college gradutes?  Why did I interview multiple nation wide firms for jobs in CA, and they always told me they loved sending midwest kids to the west coast because of their work ethic. 

I guess they were just brainwashed by our Hawkeye state motto right?

The evil corporations know they can get those mid-west college grads for pennies on the dollar in salary or they just compensate them with PBR and boxes of corn meal.

Get your facts straight before making an Iowa comment.  

Its Busch Light and corn on the cobb

[Klopenhiemer]

OB, then why do your corporations head to career fairs in the midwest and gobble up soon to be college gradutes?  Why did I interview multiple nation wide firms for jobs in CA, and they always told me they loved sending midwest kids to the west coast because of their work ethic. 

I guess they were just brainwashed by our Hawkeye state motto right?

The evil corporations know they can get those mid-west college grads for pennies on the dollar in salary or they just compensate them with PBR and boxes of corn meal.

Get your facts straight before making an Iowa comment.  

Its Busch Light and corn on the cobb

Just like we lure your kids to the midwest with a hybrid version of mary jane and fish tacos. 

[Jack Parkman]

Been to Iowa many of times and as sad as it is, Busch Lite is like the king of beers out there....and I am not saying that in a good way

I'll be honest, I think kids in the mid-west do in fact work harder and they appreciate things much more.