FB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[footballfan413]

The chip on your shoulder is totally unnecessary (at least for me).  While I taught mainly at Eastern Michigan, I also taught at 9 other schools - my best (EMU) students would have had 4.0s ANYWHERE, but the point of state schools is to ALSO take students who wouldn't be admitted to (selective) privates.

I'd assume that UWW (and EMU and NJ universities)) admit students (including football players) who would not be admitted at SCIAC (and CCIW) schools - I view that as a difference in mission, not a defect.

Damn those state schools for providing the opportunity for a college education to more than just the top 10% of the countries high school graduates!!    +karma Mr. Ypsi!  There is no doubt that public vs. private is a prime case of apples and oranges in many regards.  Both have advantages and disadvantages when it comes to the recruiting game.  Let's not forget that the WIAC, while they have much large student enrollment, have a roster limit of 100 players. Many private schools have the oportunity to recruit and develop anywhere from 40 to (in MUC's case,) 80 or more players every year. 

[Knightstalker]

kud yew tipe slowah, we steat skul kidz iz not so fast on keepen up.


same stupid argument, different board.

The chip on your shoulder is totally unnecessary (at least for me).  While I taught mainly at Eastern Michigan, I also taught at 9 other schools - my best (EMU) students would have had 4.0s ANYWHERE, but the point of state schools is to ALSO take students who wouldn't be admitted to (selective) privates.

I'd assume that UWW (and EMU and NJ universities)) admit students (including football players) who would not be admitted at SCIAC (and CCIW) schools - I view that as a difference in mission, not a defect.

No chip on my shoulder, just tired of the same old argument and of some peoples air of superiority due to where they went to school.  Heard it all, on several boards.  Like someone else mentions, schools like Mt Union have a huge roster.  NJAC and WIAC schools have a 100 man roster limit for football but UWW and Rowan have at various times been able to play with and beat Mt Union. 

In basketball we may never have heard of a kid like Dana John if he tried to go to a private school.  How many schools would take a chance on a kid who never played organized basketball, was raising a family and working full time?

[D O.C.]

Something tells me it's admirable that state schools elect to go Division III....but I'm not clear about what the something is.

[EastCoastStag]

If overall enrollment were relevant, NYU would be a perennial powerhouse, and Mount Union and Amherst would never appear in Salem!

Ummm.... do your research. Amherst cannot appear in Salem. The players could go watch the game. But unless the NESCAC changes the rules, no NESCAC football team can go to the playoffs... the whole "can Trinity compete with the big boys" debate a few years back when they kept going undefeated?

[janesvilleflash]

I have 5 kids. All have graduated from WIAC schools. None were in the top 10% of their highschool class. I worked 90 or more hours a week for over 7 years to get them through. Going to a private school was out of the question. Two of my sons played football, and my son in law wrestled. He worked a full time 40 hour a week job in a factory in order to pay for his schooling. I hate to think where people like me would be without public schools.

[stealth]

Well put statement about Dana and I seem to remember a young man named Justin Beaver. We all know his story.

kud yew tipe slowah, we steat skul kidz iz not so fast on keepen up.


same stupid argument, different board.

The chip on your shoulder is totally unnecessary (at least for me).  While I taught mainly at Eastern Michigan, I also taught at 9 other schools - my best (EMU) students would have had 4.0s ANYWHERE, but the point of state schools is to ALSO take students who wouldn't be admitted to (selective) privates.

I'd assume that UWW (and EMU and NJ universities)) admit students (including football players) who would not be admitted at SCIAC (and CCIW) schools - I view that as a difference in mission, not a defect.

No chip on my shoulder, just tired of the same old argument and of some peoples air of superiority due to where they went to school.  Heard it all, on several boards.  Like someone else mentions, schools like Mt Union have a huge roster.  NJAC and WIAC schools have a 100 man roster limit for football but UWW and Rowan have at various times been able to play with and beat Mt Union. 

In basketball we may never have heard of a kid like Dana John if he tried to go to a private school.  How many schools would take a chance on a kid who never played organized basketball, was raising a family and working full time?

[EastCoastStag]

We're not ripping on public schools for being cesspools academia.
I would like to think that everyone here does believe in the mission of (most) of these schools to provide educations and opportunities for those who otherwise would not have one. And more importantly, that everyone does not believe themselves to be inherently better as human beings based solely on their education.
Is it fun for the SCIAC to rip on its own members with lower standards? Yeah
Is it fun to rip on UWW for low standards according to us? Yeah.
Do we all believe that UWW has a different mission, yes.

I have 5 kids. All have graduated from WIAC schools. None were in the top 10% of their highschool class. I worked 90 or more hours a week for over 7 years to get them through. Going to a private school was out of the question. Two of my sons played football, and my son in law wrestled. He worked a full time 40 hour a week job in a factory in order to pay for his schooling. I hate to think where people like me would be without public schools.

There is not a person here that does not respect that statement.  I hope they all appreciated the sacrifice(s) made on their behalf for education and opportunity. I have a deep respect for the "heartland of America" and the blue collar work ethic.

Are times changing now? Yes, and more doors might be open to people in similar situations now that schools like Harvard, Davidson, CMC, etc are eliminating and/or reducing tuition for people in similar circumstances. But there will always be people like yourself working extremely hard for their children both in private and public educational settings. And whoever they are, they should be applauded.

As for myself, I work 90-100 hours a week. 7 days a week most of the time in order to position myself for my professional future and for my family's future (when that should happen), so that I may continue to rise on the professional track I have chosen, while still being able to have a family life. I refuse to be my roommate (don't turn to Craigs List people....) who is 32, esentially unemployed, and focused on having fun and a good time when he graduated, and that now has absolutely zero professional opportunities open to him.

But I guess the point of this was to be - what we in the SCIAC don't appreciate is the UWWs of the world (implying a larger general category, not just UWW) lauding their accomplishments while sneering at our attempts. We are, in general, hamstrung in our ability to recruit certain players, be it tuition, academic performance, etc. Both public and private schools have their disadvantages and advantages both on and off the field. But, let us be honest here - a 5,000 person Oxy, CMC, Pomona, Bates, Kenyon, W&L, etc. with moderately lower admissions standards at the bottom would certainly field much better teams across the board.

[Pat Coleman]

If overall enrollment were relevant, NYU would be a perennial powerhouse, and Mount Union and Amherst would never appear in Salem!

Ummm.... do your research. Amherst cannot appear in Salem. The players could go watch the game. But unless the NESCAC changes the rules, no NESCAC football team can go to the playoffs... the whole "can Trinity compete with the big boys" debate a few years back when they kept going undefeated?

Uhm, check yourself -- NYU doesn't even have football. Clearly Ypsi is talking about all sports, one of which is basketball. Amherst has done fairly well in basketball.

[Pat Coleman]

But I guess the point of this was to be - what we in the SCIAC don't appreciate is the UWWs of the world (implying a larger general category, not just UWW) lauding their accomplishments while sneering at our attempts.

You may want to turn that statement around and replace athletics with academics, because that is exactly what you are doing -- sneering at the UWWs of the world.

[Mr. Ypsi]

If overall enrollment were relevant, NYU would be a perennial powerhouse, and Mount Union and Amherst would never appear in Salem!

Ummm.... do your research. Amherst cannot appear in Salem. The players could go watch the game. But unless the NESCAC changes the rules, no NESCAC football team can go to the playoffs... the whole "can Trinity compete with the big boys" debate a few years back when they kept going undefeated?

I guess I should have clarified - I was referring to Amherst's national basketball title, also held in Salem.

[Gray Fox]

Ypsi,
      We still can hope for a Pomona vs Amherst football final in Salem.   

[EastCoastStag]

If overall enrollment were relevant, NYU would be a perennial powerhouse, and Mount Union and Amherst would never appear in Salem!

Ummm.... do your research. Amherst cannot appear in Salem. The players could go watch the game. But unless the NESCAC changes the rules, no NESCAC football team can go to the playoffs... the whole "can Trinity compete with the big boys" debate a few years back when they kept going undefeated?

Uhm, check yourself -- NYU doesn't even have football. Clearly Ypsi is talking about all sports, one of which is basketball. Amherst has done fairly well in basketball.

clarification was necessary, as basketball is rotating and football is stationary in location... plus with the inclusion of MUC in the statement, it is on face value, focused on a single sport - football. besides, the dominant OH basketball teams would be Woo and Witt (I believe).
And, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't NYU a good basketball team, so that COULD (possibly) imply something about size of enrollment?

But I guess the point of this was to be - what we in the SCIAC don't appreciate is the UWWs of the world (implying a larger general category, not just UWW) lauding their accomplishments while sneering at our attempts.

You may want to turn that statement around and replace athletics with academics, because that is exactly what you are doing -- sneering at the UWWs of the world.

If someone interprets that last post as a sneer, that is a shame. They either failed to read it and interpret it correctly; or they just have a chip on their shoulder... and easily fall prey to class warfare political arguments.
I find it hard to view

We're not ripping on public schools for being cesspools of academia.
I would like to think that everyone here does believe in the mission of (most) of these schools to provide educations and opportunities for those who otherwise would not have one. And more importantly, that everyone does not believe themselves to be inherently better as human beings based solely on their education.  

as a sneer.  If someone interprets that as such, shame on them.

Both sides of my family worked their way up from nothing to a tremendous amount. Both my parents are public school graduates. My grandfather was a public school professor for over 40 years. There is a good chance I will attend a public school MBA program (Mich, UVA, Indiana, etc). Therefore, I am certainly not one to sit around overall degrading and "sneering" at these institutions. My only intent is to point out inherent differences. If people choose to view that as some uppity part of my personality, fine.... but I hope those people also don't believe that Sen. Obama understands the plight of the inner city and impoverished minorities. I am as snobish as he is in touch with Compton, South Boston and the rural South.

Unfortunately, it seems that while this debate generates good discussion on the difference between said institutions, we can never seem to have it without people taking arguments personally. Perhaps, we should put this on ice for the time being and return to football discussions and break this argument back out in late October when playoff spots are on the line.

[EastCoastStag]

And to make everyone laugh-
Apparently LifeStyles Condoms offered a spokeswoman contract to Miley Cyrus (Hannah Montana). I think they should have offered this to Jamie Lynn Spears about a year ago......

[footballfan413]

We are, in general, hamstrung in our ability to recruit certain players, be it tuition, academic performance, etc. Both public and private schools have their disadvantages and advantages both on and off the field. But, let us be honest here - a 5,000 person Oxy, CMC, Pomona, Bates, Kenyon, W&L, etc. with moderately lower admissions standards at the bottom would certainly field much better teams across the board.

I have no problem stepping away from the dead horse that is public vs. private but at the risk of being accused of wanting the last word I just want to point out one last thing.  If D3 public state school's athletic programs have such an advantage over private  because private schools have higher tuition and higher academic standards, etc, (and BTW, I agree with that statement regarding higher academic standards but not so much with the higher tuition because privates find ways to negate the higher tuition problem with plenty of, "academic $ wink-wink," for their players,)  then why has the overwhelming majority of Stagg Bowl Champions since 1973 been private schools?  In fact, before the Warhawks won in 07, the last state school to win the Stagg was UW-Lacosse in 92.

http://www.odaconline.com/staggbowl/history.htm

[EastCoastStag]

[If D3 public state school's athletic programs have such an advantage over private  because private schools have higher tuition and higher academic standards, etc, (and BTW, I agree with that statement regarding higher academic standards but not so much with the higher tuition because privates find ways to negate the higher tuition problem with plenty of, "academic $ wink-wink," for their players,)  then why has the overwhelming majority of Stagg Bowl Champions since 1973 been private schools?  In fact, before the Warhawks won in 07, the last state school to win the Stagg was UW-Lacosse in 92.

Going out on a limb here.... probably because the majority of teams are private? Taking a shot in the dark there with that one.

Sidebar - you are right on with the "academic" money, I see way too much of that tossed around.
Although, as I start to think a little more on this one.... I wonder why some of those schools do not do better. Long thought process.... staying away from that one for the time being.