FB: Empire 8

[fisheralum91]

Hey guys--- congrats to the alma mater on the win--though it seems that they have a lot more work to do before next week----a special shout out and thanks to Dr.K for keeping me abreast of the comings and goings of the game while im on vacation in the great white north.

[K-Mack]

did anybody read keith's around the nation piece this week?
gave a little slam to fisher about why "this Year" 's team was rated so high.
well keith---it is only the second game of the season for everybody and all teams are trying to get themselves together.
Will they live up to the ranking---as you said it will determine itself in the coming weeks--- but why not throw a few barbs in other directions.
not trying to complain- but that barb could be said about anybody--------well minus MUC

I guess I didn't read it like that. I've always thought that polls should be put out no earlier than after the 4th week of the season. Obviously, Fisher is talented, but, much like many other teams, I think much of the rankings are based of of last season, which is, of course, irrelevant.

I think the reason he brought up Fisher specifically, is because his ranking for them is much lower than

A) Other rankings
B) Many people's general belief on Fisher

And so he wrote that line specifically as a pre-emptive answer to the question "Why is Fisher not in the Top 25 when they're ranked in the Top 15 in the .com poll and three of their last four losses have been to Mt. Union?"

Early season  Top 25 rankings are pointless for two reasons

1) It's too early to get a feel on anyone
2) Rankings don't determine playoff status anyway

SJF will be there when the season ends (Or, more specifically, when Hartwick, Ithaca and Sailsbury have come through) so I wouldn't worry about "barbs" being thrown out

bombers--- i understand what you are saying.
however the same could be said about many other teams- thats all

ddnt mean to look too much into it----i like seeing fisher named in a national conversation-- just want it all roses!

I'm not going to officially speak for Keith on this because I don't have nearly enough knowledge to do so, but I think you can also make a distinction as follows: when he says "this year's St. John Fisher team" it's not only what the players on the field have done in 2008 but it may also encompass what the 2008 players have done in previous years.

In the grand scheme of things, yes, not many teams have accomplished anything in 2008 aside from MUC, UWW, UMHB, etc. But every team has players from 2007 and earlier on it. What did those players accomplish in 2007 and earlier, or, how much did they contribute to the team's earlier success? In the preseason, that's what we have to go on -- who's back and what have they done? If Keith doesn't feel the players on this year's team have shown him much then that may be why he said what he said.

I'll flag him down for you and see if he has time to come by and elaborate.

Hey all,
For the record, Pat did flag me down on this the day it came up and I apologize for not getting to it sooner, as it is less relevant to respond now that another round of games have been played. Or rather, we can talk games for a couple days and then we need stuff like top 25 to get us from Wednesday to Saturday.

I'm going to respond on General Football, Top 25 ... since it's largely a philosophical discussion that might make sense to wrap people who don't read the E8 board specifically into.

Sound good?

[theoriginalupstate]

Just got back from the Fisher/ UofR Game.... Not one of the finest football games I have seen on both sides of the ball by either team. Some extremely bad officiating....(Since when is a wide out an ineligable reciever?)(Snap violation?) Official must have stayed at a holiday inn express last night... Anyway...IC Fisher game should be a good one next week...I am looking forward to it....

If he's covered on the Line of scrimmage by another player he's ineligble....

Post game thoughts, it may be harsh for people who have homeristic rah-rah views on everything....

1) Fisher is getting too cute, i hate this offense.  I hate the florida-type spread. Was it really necessary to put Marion in the backfield at QB?  Seriously if this team isnt man enough to line up in the I and ram it down UR's throat for a score than they dont deserve to win the E8. 

2) Fisher is too undisciplined, they have talent on both sides of the ball but they take stupid penalty after stupid penalty that just kill drives.  Can the LBers please play smarter football?  Seriously stop trying to pile on or try to lay someone out just for the sake of laying someone out.  Play the game to the whistle and move on to the next play.

3) I dont know if its an issue with the run game's design but whatever it is, its not working.  You cant run the outside zone out of shotgun effectively, the defensive aligment is going to be different running plays out of shotgun.  The ends going to widen and its a bitch for that tackle to turn him.  The playside DE has been stringing out the shotgun zone runs all year. 

4) Get back to the basics: Play Hard, Play Smart, Run the ball, tackle the ball carrier and finish drives.  Enough with getting cute, why put your best WR in motion to the backfield on a 3rd down play?  Im glad you set that out and up out of the backfield with him later in the game but seriously isnt that just over doing it?  Your out thinking yourselfs. 

[Bombers798891]

Just got back from the Fisher/ UofR Game.... Not one of the finest football games I have seen on both sides of the ball by either team. Some extremely bad officiating....(Since when is a wide out an ineligable reciever?)(Snap violation?) Official must have stayed at a holiday inn express last night... Anyway...IC Fisher game should be a good one next week...I am looking forward to it....

If he's covered on the Line of scrimmage by another player he's ineligble....

Post game thoughts, it may be harsh for people who have homeristic rah-rah views on everything....

1) Fisher is getting too cute, i hate this offense.  I hate the florida-type spread. Was it really necessary to put Marion in the backfield at QB?  Seriously if this team isnt man enough to line up in the I and ram it down UR's throat for a score than they dont deserve to win the E8. 

2) Fisher is too undisciplined, they have talent on both sides of the ball but they take stupid penalty after stupid penalty that just kill drives.  Can the LBers please play smarter football?  Seriously stop trying to pile on or try to lay someone out just for the sake of laying someone out.  Play the game to the whistle and move on to the next play.

3) I dont know if its an issue with the run game's design but whatever it is, its not working.  You cant run the outside zone out of shotgun effectively, the defensive aligment is going to be different running plays out of shotgun.  The ends going to widen and its a bitch for that tackle to turn him.  The playside DE has been stringing out the shotgun zone runs all year. 

4) Get back to the basics: Play Hard, Play Smart, Run the ball, tackle the ball carrier and finish drives.  Enough with getting cute, why put your best WR in motion to the backfield on a 3rd down play?  Im glad you set that out and up out of the backfield with him later in the game but seriously isnt that just over doing it?  Your out thinking yourselfs. 

It does seem to me, at least from 3rd party accounts, that Fisher has played undisciplined football this season. I can't speak to their offensive system except to say that it may just be a personnel issue. Robinson and Reile are gone, and they may not have the offense to run the ball consistently, which can in turn limit your ability to do things in the Red Zone.

I remember 2006, the first year Juvan was handed the keys to the offense after Felliceti and all those talented WR's left for the Bombers. Their PPG dropped from 38 to 29, but their point total in tough games (Alfred, Cortland, Fisher) never got over 20. Sometimes, that's just how it goes.

Fisher clearly doesn't have a go-to running back yet. They've only had one running play over 15 yards this season and none over 20. The bigger concern for me, if I was Fisher is that neither Buff State or Rochester seems to have what I would call, a great passing game. Buff State was 4-14 passing, and Rochester was 11-25. Micheli--not suprisingly---had no problems. Even with Juvan limping, Ithaca's got a better passing game that UR and Buff St. I don't think IC is going to score 69 points again, but I also don't think 20 points will win it for Fisher.

[Jonny Utah]

Just got back from the Fisher/ UofR Game.... Not one of the finest football games I have seen on both sides of the ball by either team. Some extremely bad officiating....(Since when is a wide out an ineligable reciever?)(Snap violation?) Official must have stayed at a holiday inn express last night... Anyway...IC Fisher game should be a good one next week...I am looking forward to it....

3) I dont know if its an issue with the run game's design but whatever it is, its not working.  You cant run the outside zone out of shotgun effectively, the defensive aligment is going to be different running plays out of shotgun.  The ends going to widen and its a bitch for that tackle to turn him.  The playside DE has been stringing out the shotgun zone runs all year. 

One of the main features of the spread is the no-huddle option.  Im not sure if SJF still runs this part of the spread but they have run the no-huddle in the past from what I have seen.  And the no-huddle is not for running as many plays as you can as fast as you can, but it gives coaches the option to see what the defense is doing, and then bringing in the play that will work.

So when the SJF OC sees the ends too wide for an offensive zone play, the audible should come in to run the inside zone play.

And the playside tackles zoneblock on the DE should make the RB cut it back inside on any outside zone anyway.

Sometimes a lot of inexperience may be a factor in running this offense as well.  You need great running backs that can make the cutbacks, and you need a coach that can read the defense as well.

[SJFF82]

Just got back from the Fisher/ UofR Game.... Not one of the finest football games I have seen on both sides of the ball by either team. Some extremely bad officiating....(Since when is a wide out an ineligable reciever?)(Snap violation?) Official must have stayed at a holiday inn express last night... Anyway...IC Fisher game should be a good one next week...I am looking forward to it....

If he's covered on the Line of scrimmage by another player he's ineligble....

Post game thoughts, it may be harsh for people who have homeristic rah-rah views on everything....

1) Fisher is getting too cute, i hate this offense.  I hate the florida-type spread. Was it really necessary to put Marion in the backfield at QB?  Seriously if this team isnt man enough to line up in the I and ram it down UR's throat for a score than they dont deserve to win the E8. 

2) Fisher is too undisciplined, they have talent on both sides of the ball but they take stupid penalty after stupid penalty that just kill drives.  Can the LBers please play smarter football?  Seriously stop trying to pile on or try to lay someone out just for the sake of laying someone out.  Play the game to the whistle and move on to the next play.

3) I dont know if its an issue with the run game's design but whatever it is, its not working.  You cant run the outside zone out of shotgun effectively, the defensive aligment is going to be different running plays out of shotgun.  The ends going to widen and its a bitch for that tackle to turn him.  The playside DE has been stringing out the shotgun zone runs all year. 

4) Get back to the basics: Play Hard, Play Smart, Run the ball, tackle the ball carrier and finish drives.  Enough with getting cute, why put your best WR in motion to the backfield on a 3rd down play?  Im glad you set that out and up out of the backfield with him later in the game but seriously isnt that just over doing it?  Your out thinking yourselfs. 

Good summation Upstate.  I would add that SJF came out absolutely flat and the UR players were flying around which I think contributed to the early scores for UR.

UR had success running the ball with #34, which kept the pressure off their QB to complete several balls downfield in the first half.  Then for some reason, perhaps boredom, UR stopped running the ball despite having the second-half lead.  They began opening it up on every down and the Fisher D-Line began to tee-off.  It allowed the monentum to change in the second half. 

Coach Greene's decision to take the FG off the board in the third after our 4th personal foul (UR missed the FG 4 plays later) never became a real factor except that had UR not blocked the SJF FG attempt with 1:45 to go they (UR) would have been down 10 instead of 7 with no shot of tying....moral of the story...Never take the pts off the board!

SJF learned that the hard way at Butterfield in 2005.  Took 3 off for a penalty, second attempt is missed (Blocked I think) and after blowing a 2 score lead late, lose in OT on Struzzi 106 yd int return.


Early prediction:

IC Offense  34
IC Defense  -37 2OT

[Bombers798891]

Just got back from the Fisher/ UofR Game.... Not one of the finest football games I have seen on both sides of the ball by either team. Some extremely bad officiating....(Since when is a wide out an ineligable reciever?)(Snap violation?) Official must have stayed at a holiday inn express last night... Anyway...IC Fisher game should be a good one next week...I am looking forward to it....

If he's covered on the Line of scrimmage by another player he's ineligble....

Post game thoughts, it may be harsh for people who have homeristic rah-rah views on everything....

1) Fisher is getting too cute, i hate this offense.  I hate the florida-type spread. Was it really necessary to put Marion in the backfield at QB?  Seriously if this team isnt man enough to line up in the I and ram it down UR's throat for a score than they dont deserve to win the E8. 

2) Fisher is too undisciplined, they have talent on both sides of the ball but they take stupid penalty after stupid penalty that just kill drives.  Can the LBers please play smarter football?  Seriously stop trying to pile on or try to lay someone out just for the sake of laying someone out.  Play the game to the whistle and move on to the next play.

3) I dont know if its an issue with the run game's design but whatever it is, its not working.  You cant run the outside zone out of shotgun effectively, the defensive aligment is going to be different running plays out of shotgun.  The ends going to widen and its a bitch for that tackle to turn him.  The playside DE has been stringing out the shotgun zone runs all year. 

4) Get back to the basics: Play Hard, Play Smart, Run the ball, tackle the ball carrier and finish drives.  Enough with getting cute, why put your best WR in motion to the backfield on a 3rd down play?  Im glad you set that out and up out of the backfield with him later in the game but seriously isnt that just over doing it?  Your out thinking yourselfs. 

Good summation Upstate.  I would add that SJF came out absolutely flat and the UR players were flying around which I think contributed to the early scores for UR.

UR had success running the ball with #34, which kept the pressure off their QB to complete several balls downfield in the first half.  Then for some reason, perhaps boredom, UR stopped running the ball despite having the second-half lead.  They began opening it up on every down and the Fisher D-Line began to tee-off.  It allowed the monentum to change in the second half. 

Coach Greene's decision to take the FG off the board in the third after our 4th personal foul (UR missed the FG 4 plays later) never became a real factor except that had UR not blocked the SJF FG attempt with 1:45 to go they (UR) would have been down 10 instead of 7 with no shot of tying....moral of the story...Never take the pts off the board!

SJF learned that the hard way at Butterfield in 2005.  Took 3 off for a penalty, second attempt is missed (Blocked I think) and after blowing a 2 score lead late, lose in OT on Struzzi 106 yd int return.


Early prediction:

IC Offense  34
IC Defense  -37 2OT

82--

Gotta disagree with you. The Bombers took three of the board against Lycoming and scored a TD...and they needed all the points for that one.

While taking points of the board is always risky, a lot of it depends on the situation. Is it early in the game or late? Is it likely to be a high scoring game where three points isn't going to get it done? Where's the ball going to be placed? Has your offense been able to score in the game/season?

If my kicker just make a kick from 37, and the ball will be placed at the 10, I'm pretty confident that my offense can move the ball closer, or, worst case, keep it where it is. Obviously, that didn't happen, but it was pretty hard to imagine the drive going that way. I don't think giving your offense a 1st and Goal at the 10 can be considered a bad coaching decision. They were still trailing after the FG.

Fisher didn't lose in 2005 to Ithaca because they took points off the board. They lost because, despite having a 14 point lead and the ball with about 12 minutes to go in the game, they couldn't close it out. They were forced to punt, allowed a TD, fumbled on their next drive, allowed another TD, and then Suchyna telegraphed a pass to Fehrenbach in the 2nd OT that was picked off by Struzzi.

[SJFF82]

Just got back from the Fisher/ UofR Game.... Not one of the finest football games I have seen on both sides of the ball by either team. Some extremely bad officiating....(Since when is a wide out an ineligable reciever?)(Snap violation?) Official must have stayed at a holiday inn express last night... Anyway...IC Fisher game should be a good one next week...I am looking forward to it....

If he's covered on the Line of scrimmage by another player he's ineligble....

Post game thoughts, it may be harsh for people who have homeristic rah-rah views on everything....

1) Fisher is getting too cute, i hate this offense.  I hate the florida-type spread. Was it really necessary to put Marion in the backfield at QB?  Seriously if this team isnt man enough to line up in the I and ram it down UR's throat for a score than they dont deserve to win the E8. 

2) Fisher is too undisciplined, they have talent on both sides of the ball but they take stupid penalty after stupid penalty that just kill drives.  Can the LBers please play smarter football?  Seriously stop trying to pile on or try to lay someone out just for the sake of laying someone out.  Play the game to the whistle and move on to the next play.

3) I dont know if its an issue with the run game's design but whatever it is, its not working.  You cant run the outside zone out of shotgun effectively, the defensive aligment is going to be different running plays out of shotgun.  The ends going to widen and its a bitch for that tackle to turn him.  The playside DE has been stringing out the shotgun zone runs all year. 

4) Get back to the basics: Play Hard, Play Smart, Run the ball, tackle the ball carrier and finish drives.  Enough with getting cute, why put your best WR in motion to the backfield on a 3rd down play?  Im glad you set that out and up out of the backfield with him later in the game but seriously isnt that just over doing it?  Your out thinking yourselfs. 

Good summation Upstate.  I would add that SJF came out absolutely flat and the UR players were flying around which I think contributed to the early scores for UR.

UR had success running the ball with #34, which kept the pressure off their QB to complete several balls downfield in the first half.  Then for some reason, perhaps boredom, UR stopped running the ball despite having the second-half lead.  They began opening it up on every down and the Fisher D-Line began to tee-off.  It allowed the monentum to change in the second half. 

Coach Greene's decision to take the FG off the board in the third after our 4th personal foul (UR missed the FG 4 plays later) never became a real factor except that had UR not blocked the SJF FG attempt with 1:45 to go they (UR) would have been down 10 instead of 7 with no shot of tying....moral of the story...Never take the pts off the board!

SJF learned that the hard way at Butterfield in 2005.  Took 3 off for a penalty, second attempt is missed (Blocked I think) and after blowing a 2 score lead late, lose in OT on Struzzi 106 yd int return.


Early prediction:

IC Offense  34
IC Defense  -37 2OT

Fisher didn't lose in 2005 to Ithaca because they took points off the board. They lost because, despite having a 14 point lead and the ball with about 12 minutes to go in the game, they couldn't close it out. They were forced to punt, allowed a TD, fumbled on their next drive, allowed another TD, and then Suchyna telegraphed a pass to Fehrenbach in the 2nd OT that was picked off by Struzzi.

I hear ya Bombers...except Math doesnt lie:  Tie score at the end of regualtion in 2005 plus 3 pts to SJF equals SJF win in regulation and no telegraphed pass into Struzzi's breadbasket. 

The debate comes down to hindsight every time though...I just meant that it is a bad decision to take points off the board from a Karma standpoint (and boy do I know alot about Karma) 

[theoriginalupstate]

82, just throwing this out there but IC did miss a FG as time expired in that game as well....

[Jonny Utah]

taking points off the board is your classic case of Monday morning quarterbacking.

[Bombers798891]

Just got back from the Fisher/ UofR Game.... Not one of the finest football games I have seen on both sides of the ball by either team. Some extremely bad officiating....(Since when is a wide out an ineligable reciever?)(Snap violation?) Official must have stayed at a holiday inn express last night... Anyway...IC Fisher game should be a good one next week...I am looking forward to it....

If he's covered on the Line of scrimmage by another player he's ineligble....

Post game thoughts, it may be harsh for people who have homeristic rah-rah views on everything....

1) Fisher is getting too cute, i hate this offense.  I hate the florida-type spread. Was it really necessary to put Marion in the backfield at QB?  Seriously if this team isnt man enough to line up in the I and ram it down UR's throat for a score than they dont deserve to win the E8. 

2) Fisher is too undisciplined, they have talent on both sides of the ball but they take stupid penalty after stupid penalty that just kill drives.  Can the LBers please play smarter football?  Seriously stop trying to pile on or try to lay someone out just for the sake of laying someone out.  Play the game to the whistle and move on to the next play.

3) I dont know if its an issue with the run game's design but whatever it is, its not working.  You cant run the outside zone out of shotgun effectively, the defensive aligment is going to be different running plays out of shotgun.  The ends going to widen and its a bitch for that tackle to turn him.  The playside DE has been stringing out the shotgun zone runs all year. 

4) Get back to the basics: Play Hard, Play Smart, Run the ball, tackle the ball carrier and finish drives.  Enough with getting cute, why put your best WR in motion to the backfield on a 3rd down play?  Im glad you set that out and up out of the backfield with him later in the game but seriously isnt that just over doing it?  Your out thinking yourselfs. 

Good summation Upstate.  I would add that SJF came out absolutely flat and the UR players were flying around which I think contributed to the early scores for UR.

UR had success running the ball with #34, which kept the pressure off their QB to complete several balls downfield in the first half.  Then for some reason, perhaps boredom, UR stopped running the ball despite having the second-half lead.  They began opening it up on every down and the Fisher D-Line began to tee-off.  It allowed the monentum to change in the second half. 

Coach Greene's decision to take the FG off the board in the third after our 4th personal foul (UR missed the FG 4 plays later) never became a real factor except that had UR not blocked the SJF FG attempt with 1:45 to go they (UR) would have been down 10 instead of 7 with no shot of tying....moral of the story...Never take the pts off the board!

SJF learned that the hard way at Butterfield in 2005.  Took 3 off for a penalty, second attempt is missed (Blocked I think) and after blowing a 2 score lead late, lose in OT on Struzzi 106 yd int return.


Early prediction:

IC Offense  34
IC Defense  -37 2OT

Fisher didn't lose in 2005 to Ithaca because they took points off the board. They lost because, despite having a 14 point lead and the ball with about 12 minutes to go in the game, they couldn't close it out. They were forced to punt, allowed a TD, fumbled on their next drive, allowed another TD, and then Suchyna telegraphed a pass to Fehrenbach in the 2nd OT that was picked off by Struzzi.

I hear ya Bombers...except Math doesnt lie:  Tie score at the end of regualtion in 2005 plus 3 pts to SJF equals SJF win in regulation and no telegraphed pass into Struzzi's breadbasket. 

The debate comes down to hindsight every time though...I just meant that it is a bad decision to take points off the board from a Karma standpoint (and boy do I know alot about Karma) 

SJF---

Yeah the math doesn't lie, but if you put those points back on the board, the entire game changes from that point. It's impossible to predict what would have happened especially because, if memory serves me right, that FG was really early in the game. If it occured in the 4th I'd agree with you. But I think it happened in the first, no?

Karma's an interesting thing. Our guys still complain about the INT that they say hit the ground in OT of the 2004 game, but I've always said that even if that play is called incomplete, IC still needed to score, stop Fisher, and score again. Very rarely in any game does one play determine the outcome. U of R's biggest problem was going backwards after the 1st and Goal.

[SJFF82]

Just got back from the Fisher/ UofR Game.... Not one of the finest football games I have seen on both sides of the ball by either team. Some extremely bad officiating....(Since when is a wide out an ineligable reciever?)(Snap violation?) Official must have stayed at a holiday inn express last night... Anyway...IC Fisher game should be a good one next week...I am looking forward to it....

If he's covered on the Line of scrimmage by another player he's ineligble....

Post game thoughts, it may be harsh for people who have homeristic rah-rah views on everything....

1) Fisher is getting too cute, i hate this offense.  I hate the florida-type spread. Was it really necessary to put Marion in the backfield at QB?  Seriously if this team isnt man enough to line up in the I and ram it down UR's throat for a score than they dont deserve to win the E8. 

2) Fisher is too undisciplined, they have talent on both sides of the ball but they take stupid penalty after stupid penalty that just kill drives.  Can the LBers please play smarter football?  Seriously stop trying to pile on or try to lay someone out just for the sake of laying someone out.  Play the game to the whistle and move on to the next play.

3) I dont know if its an issue with the run game's design but whatever it is, its not working.  You cant run the outside zone out of shotgun effectively, the defensive aligment is going to be different running plays out of shotgun.  The ends going to widen and its a bitch for that tackle to turn him.  The playside DE has been stringing out the shotgun zone runs all year. 

4) Get back to the basics: Play Hard, Play Smart, Run the ball, tackle the ball carrier and finish drives.  Enough with getting cute, why put your best WR in motion to the backfield on a 3rd down play?  Im glad you set that out and up out of the backfield with him later in the game but seriously isnt that just over doing it?  Your out thinking yourselfs. 

Good summation Upstate.  I would add that SJF came out absolutely flat and the UR players were flying around which I think contributed to the early scores for UR.

UR had success running the ball with #34, which kept the pressure off their QB to complete several balls downfield in the first half.  Then for some reason, perhaps boredom, UR stopped running the ball despite having the second-half lead.  They began opening it up on every down and the Fisher D-Line began to tee-off.  It allowed the monentum to change in the second half. 

Coach Greene's decision to take the FG off the board in the third after our 4th personal foul (UR missed the FG 4 plays later) never became a real factor except that had UR not blocked the SJF FG attempt with 1:45 to go they (UR) would have been down 10 instead of 7 with no shot of tying....moral of the story...Never take the pts off the board!

SJF learned that the hard way at Butterfield in 2005.  Took 3 off for a penalty, second attempt is missed (Blocked I think) and after blowing a 2 score lead late, lose in OT on Struzzi 106 yd int return.


Early prediction:

IC Offense  34
IC Defense  -37 2OT

Fisher didn't lose in 2005 to Ithaca because they took points off the board. They lost because, despite having a 14 point lead and the ball with about 12 minutes to go in the game, they couldn't close it out. They were forced to punt, allowed a TD, fumbled on their next drive, allowed another TD, and then Suchyna telegraphed a pass to Fehrenbach in the 2nd OT that was picked off by Struzzi.

I hear ya Bombers...except Math doesnt lie:  Tie score at the end of regualtion in 2005 plus 3 pts to SJF equals SJF win in regulation and no telegraphed pass into Struzzi's breadbasket. 

The debate comes down to hindsight every time though...I just meant that it is a bad decision to take points off the board from a Karma standpoint (and boy do I know alot about Karma) 

SJF---

Yeah the math doesn't lie, but if you put those points back on the board, the entire game changes from that point. It's impossible to predict what would have happened especially because, if memory serves me right, that FG was really early in the game. If it occured in the 4th I'd agree with you. But I think it happened in the first, no?

Karma's an interesting thing. Our guys still complain about the INT that they say hit the ground in OT of the 2004 game, but I've always said that even if that play is called incomplete, IC still needed to score, stop Fisher, and score again. Very rarely in any game does one play determine the outcome. U of R's biggest problem was going backwards after the 1st and Goal.

Yes it happened in the first...and I agree with everything you state...that is why I said that it's all hindsight.

[theoriginalupstate]

taking points off the board is your classic case of Monday morning quarterbacking.

Ha, by the coachs or the fans?

FWIW, what does lasts decision and the 2005 decision in IC have in common?  

Coach Foster..

[SJFF82]

82, just throwing this out there but IC did miss a FG as time expired in that game as well....

Yeh...I think they did 

[Bombers798891]

taking points off the board is your classic case of Monday morning quarterbacking.

Yup, but that's what we're here for. As much as anything else, coaching moves deserve to be scrutinized. Just because we have hindsight doesn't mean our opinions can't be based on good evidence.

For example, in this week's Wick-IC game, Hartwick punted on 4th and 10 from the Ithaca 40 down 48-35 with about six minutes to go in the 3rd. Even though 4th and 10 is unlikely to be picked up, you've got a great offense and with Hartwick's defense being gashed the way it was, giving Ithaca the ball back already down two scores was a bad play call. Ithaca, not suprisingly, scored on the ensuing drive, and after Hartwick coughed up the kickoff, Wick's offense didn't touch the ball again till it was 62-35, at which point the game was over since it was the start of the 4th quarter.

There's no reason why we can't be critical of coaching decisions, as long as we base it in some source of logic and not just "My coach sucks, he's an idiot!"