FB: Empire 8

[Yanks 99]

I'm not really worried about the schedules... but if you take out MUC and salisbury than my point differential is even better in fact fisher is +80 and hartwick is only +50... with basically identical strength of schedules

Good thing they don't take head to head match ups into account...oh wait a minute...they totally do...

[SJFF82]

Oh and if you want to keep going back into the 90's when a new Fisher program took on Hartwick I'm sure SJFF82 would love to tell you how Fisher swept Hartwick all 4 years he was there. 

...82 loves the Booby(ies)

[superman57]

I'm not really worried about the schedules... but if you take out MUC and salisbury than my point differential is even better in fact fisher is +80 and hartwick is only +50... with basically identical strength of schedules

Good thing they don't take head to head match ups into account...oh wait a minute...they totally do...

head to head will be one part of it... but over strength of schedule and team strength will also play into it... am saying that fisher will definatly get the bid of wick no... but what I am saying is I wouldn't blame the committie if they did give fisher the spot over Ithaca

[Bombers798891]

dude... a 3 way tie is like dating your cousin... it sucks... but if I were the NCAA committie I would give Fisher the nod over Wick, because of fishers win over ithaca... the NCAA likes BIG point spread wins...

wick beat 1-6 WNEC by 32
lost to 5-1 Ithaca by 27
beat 4-3 Fisher by 3
beat 5-2 Alfred by 5
beat 2-4 becker by 37
+50
13-13


Fisher lost to 6-0 MUC by 30 (every other team has lost to MUC by 37 or more)
Fisher beat Buff State 0-6 buff state by 13
beat 5-1 Ithaca by 31
lost to 4-1 hartwick by 3
lost to 6-1 Salisbury by 6
beat 2-5 Norwich by 39
+44

total record not with other team=19-13

these teams are pretty equal... but if you look at the whole picture Fishers win over Ithaca is gonna be their big win... and it is looking like a solid solid win...

You are dreaming...you can't have it both ways...

You can't claim to have the toughest SOS because you played MUC and Salisbury, BUT not have it count because you lost to both teams...but still get credit for playing both teams...

Look...SJF's schedule is strong, no question...but assuming that IC gets the AQ...and it is looking that way if IC, SJF, and 'Wick win out...there is no way you get the Pool C over 'Wick.  Not with the same record in REGION and the fact that 'Wick won the head to head match up...at SJF...

If that happens, it would be a total injustice...unlike most, not all, of you Fisher fans I can definately admit if the roles were reversed, and SJF beat 'Wick head to head with the same circumstances involved, SJF should get the Pool C...

I am not talking about a 3-way tie.  I am talking about reality...reality that we all win out and IC, as it looks now, gets the E8 AQ.  You are talking yourself into a miracle here...and it shouldn't happen...

Don't we feel that putting this amount of faith in Dan Juvan, who has never presided over a big road win in his career? He's 0-5 against SJF, Alfred, Cortland and Hartwick on the road. We keep assuming that the Bombers will win up in Alfred. Well, I'm sorry, but if you've seen Ithaca play good teams on turf, well...it's not pretty. Games get ugly. Call me a cynic, but Mike Welch and the Bombers have very rarely seized oppurtunity by the throat. Why is this team a lock to do so?

What I kind of half wish for is for IC to lose to Alfred and Cortland, Fisher runs the table, and Hartwick just takes the thing via the H2H. That way, Fisher can finish in 2nd at 7-3, and we can just let this nightmare end. Go Saxons!

[SJFF82]

ok that was entirely too much babble about hartwick.  the only solace that i have is that this discussion will be moot next year because the wick will be back to normal-bad

Bad huh?  Last ten meetings between Hartwick and St John Fisher... Hartwick leads the series 6-4.... so whats that make you?

Results of Fisher vs. Hartwick this decade.

2000---- St. John Fisher 21  Hartwick 27  (Hartwick +6)
2001---- St. John Fisher 7  Hartwick 24  (Hartwick +17)
2002---- St. John Fisher 27  Hartwick 31 (Hartwick +4)
2003---- St. John Fisher 44 Hartwick 18 (Fisher +26)   
2004---- St. John Fisher 55 Hartwick 10 (Fisher +45)
2005---- St. John Fisher 70 Hartwick 41 (Fisher +29)
2006---- St. John Fisher 57 Hartwick 16 (Fisher +41)
2007---- St. John Fisher 28 Hartwick 31 (Hartwick +3)
2008---- St. John Fisher 28 Hartwick 31 (Hartwick +3)

So this decade Hartwick has only beaten Fisher by more than a touchdown one time.  Fisher on the other hand has destroyed Hartwick leaving no doubt.  I can tell you last year Fisher should have won the game if their kicker could kick a field goal or the 4th and goal play wasn't botched at the end, and we all know about how this years game went with the missed field goals and fumbles.  Hartwick hasn't proven they are better than Fisher these past two years, they have proven they are luckier I suppose.  Also you guys keep mentioning how Fisher has 3 losses this year, well my God I would love to see your team play against Salisbury and Mount Union....combine that with the Ithaca loss, well I would think that would put you at 3 losses yourself, and you would have been a Fisher botched performance away from having 4. 

Oh and if you want to keep going back into the 90's when a new Fisher program took on Hartwick I'm sure SJFF82 would love to tell you how Fisher swept Hartwick all 4 years he was there. 

-In the years you just mentioned Hartwick is 5 and 4... last i remember thats a winning record... you're really stretchin to push the you beat us by more than we beat you... who cares!  a win is a win
-Fisher would have won if this... fisher would have won if that... last I heard heard fumbles,missed kicks, botched plays are pretty common things in football games... agreed?  You know whats not common?  Hail Mary's ... and Fisher had a hail Mary converted this year at the end of the first half... which according to your terms is lucky and shouldnt count... so really hartwick should have won by ten
-fisher is playing a heck of a schedule nobody is arguing that... and they are a good team but they do have three losses?  so what is wrong with stating that?
-if i wanna keep going back to the 90's?  where else am i supposed to go to find the last ten games?  The 80's?  And by the way you act like this young fresh team from fisher was playing a storied franchise... Hartwick football started in 1991!  so i am gald he can tell me he swept hartwick all 4 years he was there because guess what i can say the same to him!

back to the dugout boobyhasgameyo...

Hey....I gave you some k sifting through these mindless debates about how to unscramble the egg that is IC-SJF-WICK...dont get mad at me because Booby stated a fact.  Wick has braggin rights over SJF...period.  On the other hand (every other poster's point on this topic), braggin rights do not equate to national prowess or NCAA play-off success.

[Yanks 99]

I'm not really worried about the schedules... but if you take out MUC and salisbury than my point differential is even better in fact fisher is +80 and hartwick is only +50... with basically identical strength of schedules

Good thing they don't take head to head match ups into account...oh wait a minute...they totally do...

head to head will be one part of it... but over strength of schedule and team strength will also play into it... am saying that fisher will definatly get the bid of wick no... but what I am saying is I wouldn't blame the committie if they did give fisher the spot over Ithaca

H2H is one of the first things they look at in any tie breaker...if the committee took SJF in the scenario I explained above, it would be criminal...and if the roles were reversed, you would feel the same way.

Are you going to even attempt to tell me that if 'Wick and Fisher finished with the same record in the E8, the same record in the region, but SJF won the head to head that 'Wick should get the Pool C over SJF?  And don't tell me about SOS...remember, you keep telling me that the games/losses against MUC and Salisbury don't count...that they are out of region...

[superman57]

if the roles were reveresed... and Hartwick was where fisher is and Fisher was in wick's situation... yes I would still be saying the same thing... a 3 point loss is forgivable in most peoples minds... a 27 point loss is not... committie members would be hard pressed to not at least think about giving it to fisher and wick because of Fisher's win over Ithaca... esspecially if Ithaca somehow proceeds to run the table the rest of the season... if you go down a schedule and give each win a point total the 31 point rout over Ithaca just might give fisher the edge over wick...

[Yanks 99]

ok that was entirely too much babble about hartwick.  the only solace that i have is that this discussion will be moot next year because the wick will be back to normal-bad

Bad huh?  Last ten meetings between Hartwick and St John Fisher... Hartwick leads the series 6-4.... so whats that make you?

Results of Fisher vs. Hartwick this decade.

2000---- St. John Fisher 21  Hartwick 27  (Hartwick +6)
2001---- St. John Fisher 7  Hartwick 24  (Hartwick +17)
2002---- St. John Fisher 27  Hartwick 31 (Hartwick +4)
2003---- St. John Fisher 44 Hartwick 18 (Fisher +26)   
2004---- St. John Fisher 55 Hartwick 10 (Fisher +45)
2005---- St. John Fisher 70 Hartwick 41 (Fisher +29)
2006---- St. John Fisher 57 Hartwick 16 (Fisher +41)
2007---- St. John Fisher 28 Hartwick 31 (Hartwick +3)
2008---- St. John Fisher 28 Hartwick 31 (Hartwick +3)

So this decade Hartwick has only beaten Fisher by more than a touchdown one time.  Fisher on the other hand has destroyed Hartwick leaving no doubt.  I can tell you last year Fisher should have won the game if their kicker could kick a field goal or the 4th and goal play wasn't botched at the end, and we all know about how this years game went with the missed field goals and fumbles.  Hartwick hasn't proven they are better than Fisher these past two years, they have proven they are luckier I suppose.  Also you guys keep mentioning how Fisher has 3 losses this year, well my God I would love to see your team play against Salisbury and Mount Union....combine that with the Ithaca loss, well I would think that would put you at 3 losses yourself, and you would have been a Fisher botched performance away from having 4. 

Oh and if you want to keep going back into the 90's when a new Fisher program took on Hartwick I'm sure SJFF82 would love to tell you how Fisher swept Hartwick all 4 years he was there. 

-In the years you just mentioned Hartwick is 5 and 4... last i remember thats a winning record... you're really stretchin to push the you beat us by more than we beat you... who cares!  a win is a win
-Fisher would have won if this... fisher would have won if that... last I heard heard fumbles,missed kicks, botched plays are pretty common things in football games... agreed?  You know whats not common?  Hail Mary's ... and Fisher had a hail Mary converted this year at the end of the first half... which according to your terms is lucky and shouldnt count... so really hartwick should have won by ten
-fisher is playing a heck of a schedule nobody is arguing that... and they are a good team but they do have three losses?  so what is wrong with stating that?
-if i wanna keep going back to the 90's?  where else am i supposed to go to find the last ten games?  The 80's?  And by the way you act like this young fresh team from fisher was playing a storied franchise... Hartwick football started in 1991!  so i am gald he can tell me he swept hartwick all 4 years he was there because guess what i can say the same to him!

back to the dugout boobyhasgameyo...

Hey....I gave you some k sifting through these mindless debates about how to unscramble the egg that is IC-SJF-WICK...dont get mad at me because Booby stated a fact.  Wick has braggin rights over SJF...period.  On the other hand (every other poster's point on this topic), braggin rights do not equate to national prowess or NCAA play-off success.

82...I don't think anyone is looking to equate national prowess for anything...not from a 'Wick standpoint.  We want to make the NCAA's and see how things turn out.  I, nor do I think BoSox, is "bragging" about beating SJF.  SJF is a very good team...that we happen to beat again this year.  That only helps us try to get into the NCAA's this year.  That is all we are hoping for.  But BoSox has a point...when Fisher fans bring up "years" of dominance, there is no question they beat us bad for 4 straight years.  But we have won 6 of the last 10.  It all depends on how you look at it.  IC looks at their dominance as a several decade era (38 winning seasons in a row I believe?).  Some SJF fans look at their "dominance" as long term, but in reality it is 6 years...not that it is not impressive (a final 4 and an elite 8 in back to back years is awesome), it is.  BoSox is stating simply that a win is a win.  If we won 8 of 10 all by one point, but lost the two games by 35...who really owns the series?  It is up for debate because it is much closer then that...but there is certainly a debate, especially with 'Wick winning the last two.

[Yanks 99]

if the roles were reveresed... and Hartwick was where fisher is and Fisher was in wick's situation... yes I would still be saying the same thing... a 3 point loss is forgivable in most peoples minds... a 27 point loss is not... committie members would be hard pressed to not at least think about giving it to fisher and wick because of Fisher's win over Ithaca... esspecially if Ithaca somehow proceeds to run the table the rest of the season... if you go down a schedule and give each win a point total the 31 point rout over Ithaca just might give fisher the edge over wick...

That is ridiculous...by your standards head to head match up means nothing.  Nice try though...and good luck with that theory...

[superman57]

in my mind head to heads mean very little unless it is a monkey stomp... other than that it does not prove who the better team is and in my mind that is who should make the NCAA's not a team that got luck and won by three and didn't play anyone else so the go into the playoffs with 1 loss

[Bombers798891]

Upstate...

I hate to burst your bubble...but there is no way a 7-3 Fisher team gets a Pool C bid over a 8-1 'Wick team...not with 'Wick having the head to head win...

Yanks--

I'd like to agree with you, but these NCAA people are tricky dogs. IC once went 8-2 in 1998 and lost out on a Pool B bid to an 8-2 TCNJ team that IC beat. And won't SJF's region record be 7-1? You just never know. Also, you mentioned that "We're talking about this year and not the past" but keep in mind that the NCAA selection comittee, even with their guidelines, are human. Fair or not, SJF does have a recent winning history in the NCAA's, whereas the 'Wick doesn't. That could play into it as well. Personally, I'd rather not see a three loss at-large team, but who knows.

IC has never lost a Pool B bid to TCNJ, TCNJ has always been in a Pool A conference so they would get either the Pool A bid or a Pool C bid.

Knight--

Sorry. Thought that you needed seven conference members to get an auto-bid. I could have sworn there was some sort of controversy back in 1998, but it was probably just IC people whining

That was before the NCAA's got everything together...

That year was a total injustice to IC...they were great that year.  I believe just one loss.  Wasn't Jeff Tremlett on that team?  He was a sick safety...almost as good as Amato if I recall...almost...

Yanks--

Tremlett was. But he was a corner if I am not mistaken. I remember a kid named Baker on Buff State smoking him for 300 yards recieving in the loss to Buffalo State that season. Amato was a beast and the best Ithaca safety since Brian Hall was helping us to the Stagg Bowl.

Ithaca went 8-2 that year, and beat a few D-II Schools...41-33 @ AIC, 45-31 against Mansfield. Their only other loss was to a Springfield team that made the playoffs. TCNJ's other loss was to Brockport--who Ithaca ALSO beat.

So they finish with the same record. Ithaca tops a few D-II schools. Ithaca's losses are to a pair of playoff teams, TCNJ's are to Ithaca and a team that Ithaca beat. Tragic stuff.

I feel worst for that Hartwick team though. They came into Butterfield for the ECAC's and didn't have a chance in the world of winning. I was at that game. We could have named the score.

[Yanks 99]

in my mind head to heads mean very little unless it is a monkey stomp... other than that it does not prove who the better team is and in my mind that is who should make the NCAA's not a team that got luck and won by three and didn't play anyone else so the go into the playoffs with 1 loss

I won't even go into any details.  That it officially the dumbest thing I have heard on this forum ever.  Head to head means "very little"?  Wow...

[Yanks 99]

Upstate...

I hate to burst your bubble...but there is no way a 7-3 Fisher team gets a Pool C bid over a 8-1 'Wick team...not with 'Wick having the head to head win...

Yanks--

I'd like to agree with you, but these NCAA people are tricky dogs. IC once went 8-2 in 1998 and lost out on a Pool B bid to an 8-2 TCNJ team that IC beat. And won't SJF's region record be 7-1? You just never know. Also, you mentioned that "We're talking about this year and not the past" but keep in mind that the NCAA selection comittee, even with their guidelines, are human. Fair or not, SJF does have a recent winning history in the NCAA's, whereas the 'Wick doesn't. That could play into it as well. Personally, I'd rather not see a three loss at-large team, but who knows.

IC has never lost a Pool B bid to TCNJ, TCNJ has always been in a Pool A conference so they would get either the Pool A bid or a Pool C bid.

Knight--

Sorry. Thought that you needed seven conference members to get an auto-bid. I could have sworn there was some sort of controversy back in 1998, but it was probably just IC people whining

That was before the NCAA's got everything together...

That year was a total injustice to IC...they were great that year.  I believe just one loss.  Wasn't Jeff Tremlett on that team?  He was a sick safety...almost as good as Amato if I recall...almost...

Yanks--

Tremlett was. But he was a corner if I am not mistaken. I remember a kid named Baker on Buff State smoking him for 300 yards recieving in the loss to Buffalo State that season. Amato was a beast and the best Ithaca safety since Brian Hall was helping us to the Stagg Bowl.

Ithaca went 8-2 that year, and beat a few D-II Schools...41-33 @ AIC, 45-31 against Mansfield. Their only other loss was to a Springfield team that made the playoffs. TCNJ's other loss was to Brockport--who Ithaca ALSO beat.

So they finish with the same record. Ithaca tops a few D-II schools. Ithaca's losses are to a pair of playoff teams, TCNJ's are to Ithaca and a team that Ithaca beat. Tragic stuff.

I feel worst for that Hartwick team though. They came into Butterfield and didn't have a chance in the world of winning. I was at that game. We could have named the score.

I knew it was something like that.  IC got absolutely hosed that year.  I remember the AD took a lot of grief after the fact and rightfully so.  If the rules in place then were like today, IC was in easily.  It was one of the worst injustices I have ever seen.  I had friends involved with the IC program at the time, and it was nothing short of devastating.

'Wick definately struggled in the ECAC game against IC...really 'Wick's first time on the big scene and they caught a team that was pissed off and ready to play.  I agree...they could have called 96-0 and it could have happened.  If I remember right, Aikens (All-American WR for 'Wick) was out for the first half...not that it would have had literally any bearing on the outcome of the game.

[Yanks 99]

Bombers798891-

You going to be at the game tomorrow?  I am thinking about heading up?  Is there going to be a big crowd?

[Bombers798891]

So, while I hate to divert attention away from the three day SJF-Wick ****ing match, I had a question: What do people think of these ECAC playoff games? I've never been a big fan. I remember three that Ithaca was in: 1998 and 2004 when they felt slighted by the NCAA selection committee and obliterated some teams up at Butterfield--the actual quote from our Sport Radio meeting before the 2004 game was "Poor Mass Dartmouth. They've got to come all the way here just to get obliterated." Hilarious.

(Topped only by the quote before Utica's innagural trip up to IC in 2001: "May God have mercy on their souls.")

But it's not so fun when the shoe is on the other foot. Following a late season collapse in 1999, IC went  up to Union and lost 31-7, in a game that apparently no seniors wanted to play in.

It seems to me, that's how 90% of these games are. You've either got one disinterested team or one team so fired up that there's no chance. Remember when Cortland was in the top 15 in the country in 2006 and got smited by a 6-3 RPI team at home? I don't know. I suppose it can be nice to play one last game for some guys, but heck, in the 2004 IC game, students weren't even there--it was break. Anyone got thoughts on these? I'm for ditching them. I'd start a poll but don't know how...