FB: Empire 8

[Pat Coleman]

Well, yep, sorry I can't see all 239 teams play personally. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

I can't see all 239-plus starting quarterbacks play, personally. And to be honest, since I am not a scout, I don't think it would make the All-American team better if I did.

There's an argument. It's not a "really, really strong" argument. It's definitely an argument that they selected the best quarterback within 300 miles of Wilkes-Barre, since they had to guarantee the winner would be able to show up. At least, that's what they said when we talked to them in 2002.

Once upon a time, the Melberger Award was the big thing. They had national nominees and a national voting panel. They brought three finalists to the dinner and announced the winner live, on the spot. It was the true national Division III player of the year, and was recognized as such outside of Pennsylvania, Massachusetts and New York.

But that was then. In 2002 the funding was cut back. They didn't bring finalists in anymore. They had a ballot that excluded everyone in the Aztec Bowl and on the national semifinal teams, since they had moved their banquet into December and the best 50 or so seniors were busy doing something else that day.

As voter Joe Petrucci of the Wilkes-Barre paper told us back then: "That was another big reason why I didn't feel comfortable voting, because of the fact that the best players were not nominated for the award. For an award in Wilkes-Barre to have one of the best defensive players in our own backyard, and him not to be a nominee had a lot to do with me not voting."

"It's sad to say, but it's definitely a second-tier award now."

(DE Steven Wilson of King's was the player being referenced.)

After that year, they stopped even bothering with a national voter base. And since it was voted on solely locally, the Wilkes running back was named the next two years.

So that's the deal with the Melberger. It had its time. Just not anymore.

I mentioned he had more pass attempts per game. So is that surprising he would have more totals per game as well?

Certainly it's the most effective method, but even then you can catch them on a bad day and not get the full picture of how talented they are.

Exactly why it's dangerous to rely solely on in-person observation, good point.

As Keith knows, we never duck the tough decisions. We could put 75 people on the honorable mention team like Don Hansen did when he had All-American teams, but we never have. Football is played with 11 on the field at a time. If a coach has to decide which quarterback to play (don't get me started on the A-11, let's talk normal offenses) then so do we.

[Yanks 99]

I personally like K-Mack's response.  Well thought out, kind of went through the whole process on his selection thoughts, etc.  He won't change my mind, but I can see where he was coming from.

Thanks. I think this is the best we can hope for sometimes.

K-Mack...I can agree to disagree.  I respect what you guys do, and I love this website.  You have brought a bit of national prominance to D3 football.  Each and every week I talk to guys all over the country about the games while they are going on.  It is great for the game...and for D3 football.

To me, Pat is talking out of both sides of his mouth on his explanation...giving me facts based on numbers that anyone can get and then pretty much telling me that I am an idiot for disagreeing, even though he finally admits to never seeing Boltus play.  A lot of the frustration is it appears as if he wants to use the regular season stats and some "per game" numbers, but then tell me about how far these guys brought their teams in the playoffs.

In any event, thanks for your thoughts K-Mack.

[Yanks 99]

Posted by: Pat Coleman  Posted on: Today at 09:22:48 pm 
Insert Quote 
Well, yep, sorry I can't see all 239 teams play personally. I'm surprised you didn't know that. 

Yeah Pat...I think you have time to see all 239 teams play.  But are you telling me you didn't know who the top 7-8 QB's were going to be going into the season?  To quote you, I'm surprised you didn't know that...especially considering they were all juniors last year.

And I cannot believe for one second that seeing someone play couldn't help you decide who was the better player between 2 or 3 players.  That is an absurd arguement.

[Pat Coleman]

Did you see Rupp, Swallow or Joseph play? I'll assume you saw Micheli since he was on national television on Saturday. Have you ever seen Jordan Berg or Shane Henfling play? Keith Ricca? Jordan Feaster? Spud Dick? Matt Hudson? Tanner Kelly? Dan Whalen? I haven't seen all of these players play either, but they are all pretty darn good quarterbacks, too.

You want us to believe that seeing someone play is the way we're going to know they're an All-American, so I am just wondering how many you have seen. Because remember, there are only four slots.

To answer your next question, yes I knew who the candidates were and most of them lived up to that billing. But I don't have the money to fly all over the country to see them, and quarterback isn't the only position on the All-American team, either.

Hartwick played Western New England, Mount Ida and Becker, too, don't forget, and by choice. I wouldn't have been able to get a real read on him those days.

[Yanks 99]

Did you see Rupp, Swallow or Joseph play? I'll assume you saw Micheli since he was on national television on Saturday. Have you ever seen Jordan Berg or Shane Henfling play? Keith Ricca? Jordan Feaster? Spud Dick? Matt Hudson? Tanner Kelly? Dan Whalen? I haven't seen all of these players play either, but they are all pretty darn good quarterbacks, too.

You want us to believe that seeing someone play is the way we're going to know they're an All-American, so I am just wondering how many you have seen. Because remember, there are only four slots.

To answer your next question, yes I knew who the candidates were and most of them lived up to that billing. But I don't have the money to fly all over the country to see them, and quarterback isn't the only position on the All-American team, either.

Hartwick played Western New England, Mount Ida and Becker, too, don't forget, and by choice. I wouldn't have been able to get a real read on him those days.

Nope...didn't see all of them play (though I have seen Micheli play a few times, and I see a great D3 QB with all the time in the world to throw the ball and the all time leading rusher in NCAA history to hand the ball off to).  I don't expect you to fly all over the country to see players.  How about film?  Webcasts?

And I thought you weren't on the Gagliardi seletion committee?  Thats odd...

http://www.gojohnnies.com/sports/2008/10/31/FOOTBALL_1031081715.aspx?id=123

[Pat Coleman]

As I said once and apparently have to repeat for you, I vote on the award. I don't get to choose the 10 finalists. I don't have any part in administering the award. If I did, you might be able to suggest with some validity that there's a conflict of interest.

Spare the spin, sir. It's worthless.

[Pat Coleman]

I'll get a chance to watch game tape as soon as I get to quit my full-time day job and do D3.com full time. Otherwise, I really have to pay the mortgage.

I can't watch a Webcast of St. John Fisher/Hartwick or Ithaca/Hartwick because I'm at another game at the same time and they're not archived. (I was hopeful, but no dice. I did check.)

[Knightstalker]

I vote for the Gagliardi. I'm not "on the committee." If I were on the committee, I'd be whittling the original dozens of nominations down to the 10 finalists. And honestly, I'd love to be in that decision-making process, so it's not solely in the hands of the St. John's booster club. But I'm not.

Dude, give it a break.  Your reading comprehension skills are giving D-III schools a bad name.

[Yanks 99]

As I said once and apparently have to repeat for you, I vote on the award. I don't get to choose the 10 finalists. I don't have any part in administering the award. If I did, you might be able to suggest with some validity that there's a conflict of interest.

Spare the spin, sir. It's worthless.

Settle down there Pat...no spinning, just trying to get the story correct.  You said you weren't on the committee...the webpage said you were.  Simple as that.

[Pat Coleman]

I also went to some lengths to define the voters' role very carefully for you, twice now, in fact, because what they call a "committee" doesn't do all of the functions that you may assume.

[Yanks 99]

I also went to some lengths to define the voters' role very carefully for you, twice now, in fact, because what they call a "committee" doesn't do all of the functions that you may assume.

Got it Pat.  Don't take it personal...all I was thinking about being on the committee was that you had a vote in who got the award...which you do.  After that, who cares what goes on behind the scene.  OK...I got it...you are not on the committee doing normal committee things, but are officiallly on the committee according to the site, but really all you do is vote to decide the award.  Am I close?

You seem to be avoiding some questions as well...a little bit like when I asked you if you have ever seen Boltus play.  I actually do understand that you cannot go and see every college player play in a year.  I can appreciate that.  So, and you admitted this...you rely heavily on stats, and in some cases stats "per game".  So back to my last question, when a guy leads the country in the following category like Boltus does, how does he get overlooked?

1) Passing yards per game - #1 in the country
2) Total offense per game - #1 in the country
3) Points responsible for per game - #1 in the country
4) TD passes per game - #1 in the country
5) TD passes in the year (and in only 10 games) - #1 in the country
6) Passing efficiency - #3 in the country

How do those stats not jump out?  I know there are other intangibles that you have to look at...it isn't all stats, but your arguement always goes back to "so and so" had better stats then Boltus.  That is fine...but then how do you ignore the stats above.  You could make this much easier on yourself by just saying that you waited to see which of the QB's made it the furthest in the playoffs, and save yourself a lot of time...my guess though is you won't do that.  First, because it blows a hole in your "stats through the regular season" arguement, and second because that ties you down in future years.

[fisheralum91]

yanks-dream weaver by aerosmith?
Gary Wright from 76 but im not familiar with the aerosmith version.
I agreed with pat.
So?
not getting along with him is your problem--you have your own crosses to bear.
Oh and btw- Mark Robinson- quality guy----oh---Merry Xmas Rob--hope to see you at a game next season.
Yanks- do they serve a stonger cool aid up on the hill?
Wick fans seem a little over the top when it comes to beating a dead horse.

[Yanks 99]

yanks-dream weaver by aerosmith?
Gary Wright from 76 but im not familiar with the aerosmith version.
I agreed with pat.
So?
not getting along with him is your problem--you have your own crosses to bear.
Oh and btw- Mark Robinson- quality guy----oh---Merry Xmas Rob--hope to see you at a game next season.
Yanks- do they serve a stonger cool aid up on the hill?
Wick fans seem a little over the top when it comes to beating a dead horse.

Wow...not even sure why I wrote Aerosmith...good catch.

What does Robinson being a quality guy have to do with anything?  Though it is good to hear he is a good guy.  To this day, probably one of the best 3 RB's I have ever seen at the D3 level.

I don't think the AA issue is beating a dead horse...honestly, what else is there to talk about?  When Pat starts giving straight answers like Keith and stops jumping all over the map, I will concede and at least agree to disagree.  I don't drink the cool aid on the hill...but aren't you still working in Oneonta?  Ouch...all kidding aside, have a Merry Christmas...

[fisheralum91]

yanks-
was just mentioning rob not only an AA winner but good guy too.
Steve S and Brennan F were also AAs and great guys.
Would i think any less of them if they didnt get the AA nods- no- would i be upset- who knows
They were the best in the biz at their position- accolades didnt win them a championship- and if u ask any of the three they would have given up the AA for a national championship hands down.

And yes im in Otown 3- 4 days a week.
And ther is no way ill drink the cool aid

merry xmas to you as well

[Frank Rossi]

I also went to some lengths to define the voters' role very carefully for you, twice now, in fact, because what they call a "committee" doesn't do all of the functions that you may assume.

Got it Pat.  Don't take it personal...all I was thinking about being on the committee was that you had a vote in who got the award...which you do.  After that, who cares what goes on behind the scene.  OK...I got it...you are not on the committee doing normal committee things, but are officiallly on the committee according to the site, but really all you do is vote to decide the award.  Am I close?

You seem to be avoiding some questions as well...a little bit like when I asked you if you have ever seen Boltus play.  I actually do understand that you cannot go and see every college player play in a year.  I can appreciate that.  So, and you admitted this...you rely heavily on stats, and in some cases stats "per game".  So back to my last question, when a guy leads the country in the following category like Boltus does, how does he get overlooked?

1) Passing yards per game - #1 in the country
2) Total offense per game - #1 in the country
3) Points responsible for per game - #1 in the country
4) TD passes per game - #1 in the country
5) TD passes in the year (and in only 10 games) - #1 in the country
6) Passing efficiency - #3 in the country

How do those stats not jump out?  I know there are other intangibles that you have to look at...it isn't all stats, but your arguement always goes back to "so and so" had better stats then Boltus.  That is fine...but then how do you ignore the stats above.  You could make this much easier on yourself by just saying that you waited to see which of the QB's made it the furthest in the playoffs, and save yourself a lot of time...my guess though is you won't do that.  First, because it blows a hole in your "stats through the regular season" arguement, and second because that ties you down in future years.

Those stats are what got Boltus nominated, no doubt.  However, you're stacking the deck -- there were some other statistics that played into the decisions for the All-American Team that have been addressed here that you've conveniently left out.  And that's the point -- different people will place different emphasis on different statistics, and that's their right.  They don't deserve to be persecuted for the decisions.

The whole "did you see him play" question is a non-starter when Pat admitted that he hasn't and that it's the case that he hasn't seen most of the players nominated play.  Pat's not the only decider in the All-American Team, but I'm pretty sure that you'd get the same answer down the line.  It's great that you believe seeing Jason Boltus play would somehow change someone's mind about him, but I have a feeling that each of the quarterbacks chosen would exhibit many of the same qualities -- and here's the kicker, Yanks -- YOU DON'T KNOW YOURSELF what the other quarterbacks look like.  You lack a little credibility when you use that argument over and over again since you haven't seen most of the players yourself.

Would I have personally voted for Boltus?  Probably, but only as high as the Third Team because I believe in the value of the pass efficiency ratings (which are distant at first and second but bunched up for third, fourth, fifth and sixth).  These figures aren't end-all, be-all numbers, but it is where I would get a good feel for the QBs nominated.  Playoff production should be of some value, too, since it places a player against the best on the other side of the ball -- but we don't have much to use here to compare Boltus (the Brockport shootout was a loss, and Boltus was intercepted twice during the Brockport comeback).  

My point here is this:  I can understand why Boltus did not appear on the All-American Team.  Was it a close call?  Absolutely.  We discussed this during the Stagg Bowl Pregame Show (which hopefully you've listened to already, as some of the reasons are explained there).  Is the system perfect?  No, but there is no way to truly perfect the process in the ways you advocate since there are too many teams and not enough ability to watch every player play.  Yet, I can assure you that there is a pretty painstaking process used by the D3Football.com crew that votes on the Team -- I watched it in motion while I was in Salem, and there were several very close calls which they took extremely seriously.  

Congratulations to Jason Boltus on a great season and career -- as well as Jack Phelan.  You both are very deserving of all the kudos you have received and will receive.