FB: Empire 8

[SJFF82]

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

Absolutely, but consider that arguing the converse is the equivalent of telling Alfred and Springfield that they are crappy and their accomplishments this year don't count as much as the Fisher and Ithaca championships of yesteryear.

Here's the thing: Not all seasons are created equal. I think this Alfred team is incredibly talented and good. I wish the E8 was better, so we could know more about how good. It's not that Alfred isn't capable of beating very good teams. It's that we don't have any real proof other than their Springfield win.

And yes, some of the fault lies with the Saxons OOC scheduling. I'm not going to pretend that I can be an AD, because I can't. But Mass Dartmouth has scored 52 points in nine games. FDU-Florham has played two competitive games this year and one was against Alfred. If you're going to schedule those teams, you have to hope the conference is strong.

Unfortunately, Ithaca's in the midst of their worst season in like, 40 years, Fisher's not the power they were three years ago, Hartwick's in a down year compared to the last two as well. Would any fan of those three teams say they're better this year than the 2007 version?

I mean, look, we're all fans here. And come NCAA playoff time, I'm all for Alfred whopping some people all over the country.

They dont appear to be, yet part of that appearance is because they used to beat AU by 21 and now lose to them.  So how does a team like AU declare itself strong when the teams it beats logically incur that loss contributing to their perceived weakness?  Was Fisher weak in 2006 because it pummeled AU and IC who were weak because they got pummeled?  Its circular.

AU posters are taking a good approach, as fans, they are happy and excited about the position they are in, because it sure beats this fan's position....outside looking in.

Well, considering in 2006 they went to the National Semifinals and this year will be the 2nd straight that they've missed the NCAA's, I'm not sure how much more clear it can be. That's a pretty clear cut indicator.

And, if you want to compare Fisher margins of victory outside of Alfred, we can:

Rochester

2006: 20
2009: 2

Utica

2006: 64
2009: 17

Mount Union (Margin of defeat in this case)

2006: 12
2009: 42

Hartwick

2006: 41
2009: (Probably less than 41)

Overall:

2006: +24
2009: +4

Ah....but you are the one that declared that all seasons are not created equal.  I agree with your premise of looking at the other scores, but where do you draw THAT line.  UC 2009 that only lost to SJF by 17 clearly is a much better team than the 2006 squad that lost by 64....and so on.

My only point on this issue was that in any single season, barring some weird situation, like IC and SJF get banned from play, when a team goes undefeated in the E8, with wins over the perrenial powers, they must get their due....now of course to be consistent with my arguments that led to the demise of SJFF82, from a subjective standpoint, I agree with you...AU is not as powerful as the record would have them....plus they havent even beaten IC yet.   I just dont agree with the OOC argument because SJF wasnt beating any great or even mediocre OOC teams in 05, 06 and/or 07 either.

[SJFF82]

God Dang Fisher didn't get smoked by Salisbury.  Ok fine they lost by 18 lol, but that was a close game well into the 4th with Fisher down one score driving in Salisbury territory before they turned it over and Salisbury also scored a TD at the end of the game to put that one away.  I'm not saying we were going to win it, it just makes me sad and I die a little more inside every time somebody says Fisher got smoked by them or Fisher was destroyed, etc. 


mmmk back to the Alfred discussion! 

True, they came back, but by that same token, it was 31-6 Salisbury with about 11 minutes to go and still 31-13 with less than 5 minutes to go. Was the outcome ever really in doubt in the 4th quarter?

Just playing devil's advocate

You are all wrong...it was 0-0 at kick-off...Fisher was in the driver's seat...they never shoulda lost that 0-0 game.

[SaintsFAN]

, is there anyone in here NOT rooting for Alfred at this point?

I can't think of one.

Screw that.  The AU guys are nice and all but I'm not rooting for Alfred either.  I still don't understand this loyalty to the conference or the region.

I always blow guys on SEC teams, but I never root for them.

BOL!!  You're such a turd, Ferguson

[Bombers798891]

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

Absolutely, but consider that arguing the converse is the equivalent of telling Alfred and Springfield that they are crappy and their accomplishments this year don't count as much as the Fisher and Ithaca championships of yesteryear.

Here's the thing: Not all seasons are created equal. I think this Alfred team is incredibly talented and good. I wish the E8 was better, so we could know more about how good. It's not that Alfred isn't capable of beating very good teams. It's that we don't have any real proof other than their Springfield win.

And yes, some of the fault lies with the Saxons OOC scheduling. I'm not going to pretend that I can be an AD, because I can't. But Mass Dartmouth has scored 52 points in nine games. FDU-Florham has played two competitive games this year and one was against Alfred. If you're going to schedule those teams, you have to hope the conference is strong.

Unfortunately, Ithaca's in the midst of their worst season in like, 40 years, Fisher's not the power they were three years ago, Hartwick's in a down year compared to the last two as well. Would any fan of those three teams say they're better this year than the 2007 version?

I mean, look, we're all fans here. And come NCAA playoff time, I'm all for Alfred whopping some people all over the country.

They dont appear to be, yet part of that appearance is because they used to beat AU by 21 and now lose to them.  So how does a team like AU declare itself strong when the teams it beats logically incur that loss contributing to their perceived weakness?  Was Fisher weak in 2006 because it pummeled AU and IC who were weak because they got pummeled?  Its circular.

AU posters are taking a good approach, as fans, they are happy and excited about the position they are in, because it sure beats this fan's position....outside looking in.

Well, considering in 2006 they went to the National Semifinals and this year will be the 2nd straight that they've missed the NCAA's, I'm not sure how much more clear it can be. That's a pretty clear cut indicator.

And, if you want to compare Fisher margins of victory outside of Alfred, we can:

Rochester

2006: 20
2009: 2

Utica

2006: 64
2009: 17

Mount Union (Margin of defeat in this case)

2006: 12
2009: 42

Hartwick

2006: 41
2009: (Probably less than 41)

Overall:

2006: +24
2009: +4

Ah....but you are the one that declared that all seasons are not created equal.  I agree with your premise of looking at the other scores, but where do you draw THAT line.  UC 2009 that only lost to SJF by 17 clearly is a much better team than the 2006 squad that lost by 64....and so on.

My only point on this issue was that in any single season, barring some weird situation, like IC and SJF get banned from play, when a team goes undefeated in the E8, with wins over the perrenial powers, they must get their due....now of course to be consistent with my arguments that led to the demise of SJFF82, from a subjective standpoint, I agree with you...AU is not as powerful as the record would have them....plus they havent even beaten IC yet.   I just dont agree with the OOC argument because SJF wasnt beating any great or even mediocre OOC teams in 05, 06 and/or 07 either.

Eh, I disagree with the 2006 OOC for Fisher

Rochester was 7-4
Kings was 6-5
Mt. Ida was 5-4
Brockport was 4-6

Not world beaters, but some reasonably decent teams. Overall record of 22-19 (22-15 if you take out the losses Fisher was responsible for). I'd consider those average opponents.

The problem with Alfred is, two of their three OOC teams are just terrible. Mass Dartmouth is 0-9 and FDU-Florham is 1-7. To me, those games are akin to Texas scheduling Wyoming or Florida scheduling Troy. Most teams do it, so I'm not singling Alfred out.

And yes, when doing score comparisons, there's two sides to every story. But almost all of Fisher's games have point differentials that are massively different than they were in 2006. One notable exception might be Ithaca (23 vs. 24). I'd like to get some Fisher fans opinions on it, but I'd be willing to wager most would consider the 2006 team to be better. As an Ithaca fan, the 2006 team wasn't great, but I'd take them over this team, and frankly, I'm not sure Welch has had a worse team in his 16 years here.  

[JQV]

+k LD.  I didn't even see it.

[SJFF82]

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

Absolutely, but consider that arguing the converse is the equivalent of telling Alfred and Springfield that they are crappy and their accomplishments this year don't count as much as the Fisher and Ithaca championships of yesteryear.

Here's the thing: Not all seasons are created equal. I think this Alfred team is incredibly talented and good. I wish the E8 was better, so we could know more about how good. It's not that Alfred isn't capable of beating very good teams. It's that we don't have any real proof other than their Springfield win.

And yes, some of the fault lies with the Saxons OOC scheduling. I'm not going to pretend that I can be an AD, because I can't. But Mass Dartmouth has scored 52 points in nine games. FDU-Florham has played two competitive games this year and one was against Alfred. If you're going to schedule those teams, you have to hope the conference is strong.

Unfortunately, Ithaca's in the midst of their worst season in like, 40 years, Fisher's not the power they were three years ago, Hartwick's in a down year compared to the last two as well. Would any fan of those three teams say they're better this year than the 2007 version?

I mean, look, we're all fans here. And come NCAA playoff time, I'm all for Alfred whopping some people all over the country.

They dont appear to be, yet part of that appearance is because they used to beat AU by 21 and now lose to them.  So how does a team like AU declare itself strong when the teams it beats logically incur that loss contributing to their perceived weakness?  Was Fisher weak in 2006 because it pummeled AU and IC who were weak because they got pummeled?  Its circular.

AU posters are taking a good approach, as fans, they are happy and excited about the position they are in, because it sure beats this fan's position....outside looking in.

Well, considering in 2006 they went to the National Semifinals and this year will be the 2nd straight that they've missed the NCAA's, I'm not sure how much more clear it can be. That's a pretty clear cut indicator.

And, if you want to compare Fisher margins of victory outside of Alfred, we can:

Rochester

2006: 20
2009: 2

Utica

2006: 64
2009: 17

Mount Union (Margin of defeat in this case)

2006: 12
2009: 42

Hartwick

2006: 41
2009: (Probably less than 41)

Overall:

2006: +24
2009: +4

Ah....but you are the one that declared that all seasons are not created equal.  I agree with your premise of looking at the other scores, but where do you draw THAT line.  UC 2009 that only lost to SJF by 17 clearly is a much better team than the 2006 squad that lost by 64....and so on.

My only point on this issue was that in any single season, barring some weird situation, like IC and SJF get banned from play, when a team goes undefeated in the E8, with wins over the perrenial powers, they must get their due....now of course to be consistent with my arguments that led to the demise of SJFF82, from a subjective standpoint, I agree with you...AU is not as powerful as the record would have them....plus they havent even beaten IC yet.   I just dont agree with the OOC argument because SJF wasnt beating any great or even mediocre OOC teams in 05, 06 and/or 07 either.

Eh, I disagree with the 2006 OOC for Fisher

Rochester was 7-4
Kings was 6-5
Mt. Ida was 5-4
Brockport was 4-6

Not world beaters, but some reasonably decent teams. Overall record of 22-19 (22-15 if you take out the losses Fisher was responsible for). I'd consider those average opponents.

The problem with Alfred is, two of their three OOC teams are just terrible. Mass Dartmouth is 0-9 and FDU-Florham is 1-7. To me, those games are akin to Texas scheduling Wyoming or Florida scheduling Troy. Most teams do it, so I'm not singling Alfred out.

And yes, when doing score comparisons, there's two sides to every story. But almost all of Fisher's games have point differentials that are massively different than they were in 2006. One notable exception might be Ithaca (23 vs. 24). I'd like to get some Fisher fans opinions on it, but I'd be willing to wager most would consider the 2006 team to be better. As an Ithaca fan, the 2006 team wasn't great, but I'd take them over this team, and frankly, I'm not sure Welch has had a worse team in his 16 years here.  

no doubt, you'd be a moron to state otherwise.  Remember, this issue was about the comparitive OOC schedules of those 2006 teams with AU's present one.  You addressed that well.

[Frank Rossi]

New Regional Rankings:

http://www.d3football.com/dailydose/2009/11/04/ncaa-regional-rankings-take-2/

[BoSox0322]

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

Absolutely, but consider that arguing the converse is the equivalent of telling Alfred and Springfield that they are crappy and their accomplishments this year don't count as much as the Fisher and Ithaca championships of yesteryear.

Here's the thing: Not all seasons are created equal. I think this Alfred team is incredibly talented and good. I wish the E8 was better, so we could know more about how good. It's not that Alfred isn't capable of beating very good teams. It's that we don't have any real proof other than their Springfield win.

And yes, some of the fault lies with the Saxons OOC scheduling. I'm not going to pretend that I can be an AD, because I can't. But Mass Dartmouth has scored 52 points in nine games. FDU-Florham has played two competitive games this year and one was against Alfred. If you're going to schedule those teams, you have to hope the conference is strong.

Unfortunately, Ithaca's in the midst of their worst season in like, 40 years, Fisher's not the power they were three years ago, Hartwick's in a down year compared to the last two as well. Would any fan of those three teams say they're better this year than the 2007 version?

I mean, look, we're all fans here. And come NCAA playoff time, I'm all for Alfred whopping some people all over the country.

They dont appear to be, yet part of that appearance is because they used to beat AU by 21 and now lose to them.  So how does a team like AU declare itself strong when the teams it beats logically incur that loss contributing to their perceived weakness?  Was Fisher weak in 2006 because it pummeled AU and IC who were weak because they got pummeled?  Its circular.

AU posters are taking a good approach, as fans, they are happy and excited about the position they are in, because it sure beats this fan's position....outside looking in.

Well, considering in 2006 they went to the National Semifinals and this year will be the 2nd straight that they've missed the NCAA's, I'm not sure how much more clear it can be. That's a pretty clear cut indicator.

And, if you want to compare Fisher margins of victory outside of Alfred, we can:

Rochester

2006: 20
2009: 2

Utica

2006: 64
2009: 17

Mount Union (Margin of defeat in this case)

2006: 12
2009: 42

Hartwick

2006: 41
2009: (Probably less than 41)

Overall:

2006: +24
2009: +4

Ah....but you are the one that declared that all seasons are not created equal.  I agree with your premise of looking at the other scores, but where do you draw THAT line.  UC 2009 that only lost to SJF by 17 clearly is a much better team than the 2006 squad that lost by 64....and so on.

My only point on this issue was that in any single season, barring some weird situation, like IC and SJF get banned from play, when a team goes undefeated in the E8, with wins over the perrenial powers, they must get their due....now of course to be consistent with my arguments that led to the demise of SJFF82, from a subjective standpoint, I agree with you...AU is not as powerful as the record would have them....plus they havent even beaten IC yet.   I just dont agree with the OOC argument because SJF wasnt beating any great or even mediocre OOC teams in 05, 06 and/or 07 either.

Eh, I disagree with the 2006 OOC for Fisher

Rochester was 7-4
Kings was 6-5
Mt. Ida was 5-4
Brockport was 4-6

Not world beaters, but some reasonably decent teams. Overall record of 22-19 (22-15 if you take out the losses Fisher was responsible for). I'd consider those average opponents.

The problem with Alfred is, two of their three OOC teams are just terrible. Mass Dartmouth is 0-9 and FDU-Florham is 1-7. To me, those games are akin to Texas scheduling Wyoming or Florida scheduling Troy. Most teams do it, so I'm not singling Alfred out.

And yes, when doing score comparisons, there's two sides to every story. But almost all of Fisher's games have point differentials that are massively different than they were in 2006. One notable exception might be Ithaca (23 vs. 24). I'd like to get some Fisher fans opinions on it, but I'd be willing to wager most would consider the 2006 team to be better. As an Ithaca fan, the 2006 team wasn't great, but I'd take them over this team, and frankly, I'm not sure Welch has had a worse team in his 16 years here.  

Now Mt Ida is getting respect as an OOC opponent?  hmmmm  thats funny

[BoSox0322]

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

Absolutely, but consider that arguing the converse is the equivalent of telling Alfred and Springfield that they are crappy and their accomplishments this year don't count as much as the Fisher and Ithaca championships of yesteryear.

Here's the thing: Not all seasons are created equal. I think this Alfred team is incredibly talented and good. I wish the E8 was better, so we could know more about how good. It's not that Alfred isn't capable of beating very good teams. It's that we don't have any real proof other than their Springfield win.

And yes, some of the fault lies with the Saxons OOC scheduling. I'm not going to pretend that I can be an AD, because I can't. But Mass Dartmouth has scored 52 points in nine games. FDU-Florham has played two competitive games this year and one was against Alfred. If you're going to schedule those teams, you have to hope the conference is strong.

Unfortunately, Ithaca's in the midst of their worst season in like, 40 years, Fisher's not the power they were three years ago, Hartwick's in a down year compared to the last two as well. Would any fan of those three teams say they're better this year than the 2007 version?

I mean, look, we're all fans here. And come NCAA playoff time, I'm all for Alfred whopping some people all over the country.

They dont appear to be, yet part of that appearance is because they used to beat AU by 21 and now lose to them.  So how does a team like AU declare itself strong when the teams it beats logically incur that loss contributing to their perceived weakness?  Was Fisher weak in 2006 because it pummeled AU and IC who were weak because they got pummeled?  Its circular.

AU posters are taking a good approach, as fans, they are happy and excited about the position they are in, because it sure beats this fan's position....outside looking in.

Well, considering in 2006 they went to the National Semifinals and this year will be the 2nd straight that they've missed the NCAA's, I'm not sure how much more clear it can be. That's a pretty clear cut indicator.

And, if you want to compare Fisher margins of victory outside of Alfred, we can:

Rochester

2006: 20
2009: 2

Utica

2006: 64
2009: 17

Mount Union (Margin of defeat in this case)

2006: 12
2009: 42

Hartwick

2006: 41
2009: (Probably less than 41)

Overall:

2006: +24
2009: +4

Ah....but you are the one that declared that all seasons are not created equal.  I agree with your premise of looking at the other scores, but where do you draw THAT line.  UC 2009 that only lost to SJF by 17 clearly is a much better team than the 2006 squad that lost by 64....and so on.

My only point on this issue was that in any single season, barring some weird situation, like IC and SJF get banned from play, when a team goes undefeated in the E8, with wins over the perrenial powers, they must get their due....now of course to be consistent with my arguments that led to the demise of SJFF82, from a subjective standpoint, I agree with you...AU is not as powerful as the record would have them....plus they havent even beaten IC yet.   I just dont agree with the OOC argument because SJF wasnt beating any great or even mediocre OOC teams in 05, 06 and/or 07 either.

Eh, I disagree with the 2006 OOC for Fisher

Rochester was 7-4
Kings was 6-5
Mt. Ida was 5-4
Brockport was 4-6

Not world beaters, but some reasonably decent teams. Overall record of 22-19 (22-15 if you take out the losses Fisher was responsible for). I'd consider those average opponents.

The problem with Alfred is, two of their three OOC teams are just terrible. Mass Dartmouth is 0-9 and FDU-Florham is 1-7. To me, those games are akin to Texas scheduling Wyoming or Florida scheduling Troy. Most teams do it, so I'm not singling Alfred out.

And yes, when doing score comparisons, there's two sides to every story. But almost all of Fisher's games have point differentials that are massively different than they were in 2006. One notable exception might be Ithaca (23 vs. 24). I'd like to get some Fisher fans opinions on it, but I'd be willing to wager most would consider the 2006 team to be better. As an Ithaca fan, the 2006 team wasn't great, but I'd take them over this team, and frankly, I'm not sure Welch has had a worse team in his 16 years here.  

Now Mt Ida is getting respect as an OOC opponent?  hmmmm  thats funny

What Alfred is being exposed to is the opinion of some posters (from both teams) that if Ithaca and SJF arent the two best teams in the league.... then the league is down that year.... and Alfred's team cant compare to any of the good Ithaca or SJF teams...

lets Go Alfred...Fight the elitist....

[SJFF82]

BoSox, i dont think a single Fisher poster has stated or implied such.

[JQV]

What Alfred is being exposed to is the opinion of some posters (from both teams) that if Ithaca and SJF arent the two best teams in the league.... then the league is down that year.... and Alfred's team cant compare to any of the good Ithaca or SJF teams...

lets Go Alfred...Fight the elitist....

Saying the league is down because Fisher and IC are having down years has nothing to do with how good Alfred is.

The league is down when most of the teams aren't very good.  EVERY year, Hartwick, Utica, and (the artist formerly known as Norwich), aren't good.  Therefore, there isn't any reason to discuss those teams when discussing whether or not the league is having a down year.

The only teams that are regularly good are IC, Springfield, Alfred and Fisher.  Therefore, those are the teams you talk about when you are arguing the league is down.

The same is true when we were saying that the E8 was having a great year because Hartwick was having an "up" season.  We didn't need to say that Fisher, IC, Alfred and Springfield are also good.

[SJFF82]

What Alfred is being exposed to is the opinion of some posters (from both teams) that if Ithaca and SJF arent the two best teams in the league.... then the league is down that year.... and Alfred's team cant compare to any of the good Ithaca or SJF teams...

lets Go Alfred...Fight the elitist....

Saying the league is down because Fisher and IC are having down years has nothing to do with how good Alfred is.

The league is down when most of the teams aren't very good.  EVERY year, Hartwick, Utica, and (the artist formerly known as Norwich), aren't good.  Therefore, there isn't any reason to discuss those teams when discussing whether or not the league is having a down year.

The only teams that are regularly good are IC, Springfield, Alfred and Fisher.  Therefore, those are the teams you talk about when you are arguing the league is down.

The same is true when we were saying that the E8 was having a great year because Hartwick was having an "up" season.  We didn't need to say that Fisher, IC, Alfred and Springfield are also good.

oh boy...now look what you started...

[JQV]

Hartwick
1999 (6-4 IND)
2000 (7-4 IND)
2001 (7-4 IND)
2002 (8-2, 3-1 E8)
2003 (2-7, 1-3 E8)
2004 (1-8, 0-6 E8)
2005 (4-6, 0-6 E8)
2006 (4-6, 2-4 E8)
2007 (8-3, 4-1 E8)
2008 (7-3, 4-2 E8)
2009 (5-3, 1-3 E8)

11-24 all time in E8 play.

EDIT: I'll add one other thing here, if Hartwick isn't careful, Utica is going to crush their program by getting better and holding recruits in the Mohawk Valley that may have chosen Hartwick in the past.  This year could be the tipping point that permanently trades Hartwick and Utica in the heirarchy.

[SJFF82]

Hartwick
1999 (6-4 IND)
2000 (7-4 IND)
2001 (7-4 IND)
2002 (8-2, 3-1 E8)
2003 (2-7, 1-3 E8)
2004 (1-8, 0-6 E8)
2005 (4-6, 0-6 E8)
2006 (4-6, 2-4 E8)
2007 (8-3, 4-1 E8)
2008 (7-3, 4-2 E8)
2009 (5-3, 1-3 E8)

11-24 all time in E8 play.

EDIT: I'll add one other thing here, if Hartwick isn't careful, Utica is going to crush their program by getting better and holding recruits in the Mohawk Valley that may have chosen Hartwick in the past.  This year could be the tipping point that permanently trades Hartwick and Utica in the heirarchy.

well I was only kiddin, but to be fair, you did say "Every" year...I mean, they did win a e8 title recently....ok, I am leavin this alone now...

[JQV]

Stop lawyering me Ty.

Fine.  Strike "every" and replace it with "usually."