FB: Empire 8

[sjfcards]

When looking at the numbers it seems as if the East has played MUC tough, tougher than most in the OAC, and quite similar to most, aside from your top 5 teams, that everyone knows, clearly stand above all others.

I agree 100% dlip. That is most of the reason I proposed the idea of taking one of the last teams from the North (or any region I guess) and moving them into the east. We have said on this board thousands of times that teams can go to MUC and compete, on occassion, the first time they play them, but if MUC sees a team a second time they typically pound them. I think that idea is sort of backed up by the idea that MUC only has one more loss to in regoin teams as they do to out of region teams in the past 11 years, even though they obviously play these teams much more often.

If the idea is to give MUC, as the #1 overall seed the easiest path to the playoffs, then is it possible we are hurting them by bringing them into the east, since they will have to play more unfamiliar opponents?

[maxpower]

One thing I do remember, when Ithaca went to MUC in 2007 and gave them a game, we on the E8 board were getting post after post from OACers about "best team we've seen in a while" and "juvan is a great QB" and "we'd like to see more of these high-quality east teams." And we were the 8th seed! Look back into the file if you don't believe me.

I've never seen MUC play (that IC game was on radio  ), but I might agree with Bombers in the sense that it might even be less a talent issue than a "don't blow big games" issue. How does (almost) the same IC team that played MUC close go to Curry the next year and **** the bed? Same happened to Hartwick; the only E8 team, and maybe East team, with high expectations that hasn't blown in royally lately has been SJF.

[Pat Coleman]

Don't give that to me. I was the one who said you weren't anti-East.

You're not the only one reading this topic, so please understand that not everything is addressed solely to you.

[Bombers798891]

Don't give that to me. I was the one who said you weren't anti-East.

You're not the only one reading this topic, so please understand that not everything is addressed solely to you.

Well, quoting my post is a pretty easy way to think you ARE addressing me Pat. You could always point out who you are addressing by quoting THEIR post or mentioning their name

[Pat Coleman]

I don't think Pat is anti-east.

Seriously? Where have you been? It's a nice thing to say, but Pat is most definitely anti-East.

I'm pro-facts. Facts don't say much nice about the East. It's just reality, Doid.

I addressed him by name in the previous post. I believe everyone knew who I was talking to there, 798891.

[Bombers798891]

I don't think Pat is anti-east.

Seriously? Where have you been? It's a nice thing to say, but Pat is most definitely anti-East.

I'm pro-facts. Facts don't say much nice about the East. It's just reality, Doid.

I addressed him by name in the previous post. I believe everyone knew who I was talking to there, 798891.

Sorry we're not all clairvoyant and know who you're addressing when you quote someone else's post. I will work on my mind-reading capabilities 

[pg04]

Boy this is becoming the battle of who can be more sarcastic and snotty to the other. 

In my opinion, "Coming Close" to Mount Union really doesn't matter in this case.  Until either an East team wins all their games and actually makes it to the Stagg Bowl, or some team actually BEATS MUC, the East will be irrelevant on the national scene. 

[Bombers798891]

Boy this is becoming the battle of who can be more sarcastic and snotty to the other. 

In my opinion, "Coming Close" to Mount Union really doesn't matter in this case.  Until either an East team wins all their games and actually makes it to the Stagg Bowl, or some team actually BEATS MUC, the East will be irrelevant on the national scene. 

I think that's a bit harsh. I mean, does that mean the only two "relevant" teams in the past five years are MUC and UW-W? Holding any region to that standard seems a bit unrealistic. The last five plus years, these teams have gone something like 145-1 against teams not each other. I think there are more than two relevant teams in D-III--although I don't know how many, if any, lie in the East.

[Doid23]

I don't think Pat is anti-east.

Seriously? Where have you been? It's a nice thing to say, but Pat is most definitely anti-East.

I'm pro-facts. Facts don't say much nice about the East. It's just reality, Doid.

No attitude, huh Pat? OK, I posted something earlier regarding MUC playoff results vs. the East and North. Facts. You keep saying how the East get's blown out by MUC in the playoffs. Please opine.

Here's my problem with the whole importing Mt. Union thing. The numbers don't support that the East is so  lacking vs. the North. The real beneficiary of this model are the "elite" North (Midwest) teams, but I'm not sure why they deserve the pass.  This is going to seem strange, sometimes comparing blowout losses, but basically, the results over the last 5 years vs. the North and East are very similar for Mt. U's opponents:

2005  d. MSJ 49-6, Augustana 44-7, Capital 34-31, Rowan 19-7
2006  d. Hope 49-6, Wheaton 44-7, Capital 17-14, Fisher 26-14
2007  d. Ithaca 42-18,New Jersey 59-7, Fisher 52-10, Bethel 62-14
2008  d. RMacon 56-0, Hobart 42-7, Cortland 41-14, d. Wheaton 45-24
2009  d. W&J55-0, Montclair 62-14, Albright 55-3, Wesley 24-7

They blow out everyone in the first rounds, no matter where they're from. But, the scores show that over the years, the best North Rep excluding Mt. U (Capital, Capital, Bethel, Wheaton) had similar results vs Mt. U and the East (Rowan, Fisher, Fisher, Cortland. So, ex Mt. U, why exactly is the North considered superior to the East? Take away Mt. Union (the fact that they carry a 200 man roster would suggest to me that they're really not a true DIII team, but that's a discussion for another day), and I'd stack the East vs. the North any day.

[pg04]

It may be harsh, I would argue that those two really are the only relevant teams if no one has shown the ability to beat them.  Obviously not to say that every other team shouldn't go out their and work their butts off to attain that level, but even Wesley has been continuously destroyed by UWW.  

I would say that the South is only slightly less inept than the East and that the same applies to them (Over the last 5 years) 

[dewcrew88]

I cannot imagine that you are arguing that the South Region is better as a whole simply because of their one win (Mary Hardin-Baylor) over MUC by 3 in 2004???  Because they kind of did lay an egg when they lost to Linfield in the championship the following week...

Uhm, check your history. They lost by one score and they were driving as time expired. Compare that to the Rowan beatdown by Pacific Lutheran in 1999.

I know the score was close...but the fact is they lost in the championship game the week after slaying Goliath.  It would have been like the 1980 Hockey Team losing to Finland the next game.  It was nice to beat the Russians...but would we even care today if we didn't eventually win the gold???

I can agree to disagree...just not sure there is that much of a difference between the regional scores you just listed above for the East Region (which of course includes MUC) and the 43-9, 46-14, and 44-7 playoff losses that Wesley has suffered in 3 of the past 4 years, or MHB's 53-21 and 39-13 playoff losses over the past two years.  I mean...they all smell like beat downs...

I am actually not sure how the North Region escapes the most criticism.  They play more games against MUC each year (obviously...they are in the same Region)...and have exactly as many wins as the East and South Regions do (one each).  More chances to beat MUC...and the same amount of wins???

Do most people remember we won the gold. I bet if you asked, many people will remember the game against the Russians as the gold medal game.

[dewcrew88]

Pat -

The question on the football homepage regarding Ithaca's rushing game is misleading.  Those numbers take into account a snap over the punter's head and QB sacks, which accounted for -62 yards rushing.  In my opinion those yards shouldn't count so the real number is 48 yards rushing.  It is misleading!

I believe in D3, those yards do count. I think that those negative yards count in the rushing totals at all college levels, but maybe PC knows for sure.

there is different rules for d3?

No, as I mentioned yesterday.

Just wanted to clarify... I think that came from a D3 Journalist...

Thanks Bosox. No different rules in D3. Doesn't count like that in the NFL though.

[dewcrew88]

I don't think Pat is anti-east.

Seriously? Where have you been? It's a nice thing to say, but Pat is most definitely anti-East.

Look, what has the East Region done to differentiate itself? Other than 2006 Fisher, what East region team since Rowan has actually been a contender?

Yes, I think it's a circular argument, to say they're weak and bring MUC East and then use MUC winning to prove that point like it's some big shock that the Purple Raiders won the region (because they so often lost it when they were in the North). But if a team from the East could put together a dominant regular season, we wouldn't have this problem at all.

So next time, tell Fisher to stop losing to Springfield. Or IC to stop losing to Fisher. Or Cortland to stop losing to IC. Or Del Valley to stop losing to...whoever it is that beats them.

But this is the crux of the problem. The East beats the **** out of each other. In the North, it's Mt. Union, Ohio Northern occasionally, and that's it.
I don't think it's a matter of the East being "worst" and that anti-East bias **** can be shoved where the sun don't shine.
I think it's the matter of the fact that the East clobbers each other year in and year out.

[pg04]

The East "Clobbering" each other can't be used as an excuse.  Outside of Mount Union, the North "Clobbers" each other too throughout the season.  UWW is in one of the toughest conferences in D3.  At some point, one team just needs to step up and be the eastern power akin to Rowan 10 years ago. 

[dewcrew88]

The East "Clobbering" each other can't be used as an excuse.  Outside of Mount Union, the North "Clobbers" each other too throughout the season.  UWW is in one of the toughest conferences in D3.  At some point, one team just needs to step up and be the eastern power akin to Rowan 10 years ago. 

You are absolutely right. However, my point was the fact of that's why MUC gets moved to the East bracket and runs through the East teams. They've done it 3 years in a row (just to the East, mind you, I'm not going back much farther than that).

I think the East is stronger top to bottom than the North. That's all I'm saying. I don't know if we'll see a Rowan-esque power in the East because the conference is good top to bottom.