FB: Empire 8

[Bombers798891]

I know it's early, but you've got the AQ so there's no "looking ahead".... who do the AU posters WANT to see in the first round? Why?

I dont know if any of the E8 posters spoke up on this Max but, if at all possible, I would love to see an AU-Cortland matchup.

Obviously, it probably wont happen unless they both move on but it was one team that I always wanted to play while I was at AU.  Plus, Murray was the head coach there and Puccio was an all-american under his tenure so I think it would add an extra headline to the game...

I'm assuming it will probably be Delaware Valley and MUC with shots at the non-AQ teams... and since AU has two losses, they will be a lower seeded AQ team.  Which means they will probably be matched up against a higher seeded Pool C team or a lower seeded AQ team.  I think a matchup against Rowan (assuming they get the bid) or Suny Maritime is most likely in the future for the Saxons...

I would suspect MUC gets St. Lawrence in the first round. Despite being a Pool A, it strikes me that they're the weakest team in the region. Unless the committee won't seed an AQ 8th...

[lewdogg11]

I know it's early, but you've got the AQ so there's no "looking ahead".... who do the AU posters WANT to see in the first round? Why?

I dont know if any of the E8 posters spoke up on this Max but, if at all possible, I would love to see an AU-Cortland matchup.

Obviously, it probably wont happen unless they both move on but it was one team that I always wanted to play while I was at AU.  Plus, Murray was the head coach there and Puccio was an all-american under his tenure so I think it would add an extra headline to the game...

I'm assuming it will probably be Delaware Valley and MUC with shots at the non-AQ teams... and since AU has two losses, they will be a lower seeded AQ team.  Which means they will probably be matched up against a higher seeded Pool C team or a lower seeded AQ team.  I think a matchup against Rowan (assuming they get the bid) or Suny Maritime is most likely in the future for the Saxons...

I would suspect MUC gets St. Lawrence in the first round. Despite being a Pool A, it strikes me that they're the weakest team in the region. Unless the committee won't seed an AQ 8th...

I have to find it hard to believe that a 5-5 or 4-6 team will not get an 8 seed regardless of how they got there.  If rankings were 1-32, St. Lawrence definitely would be 32.

[dlippiel]

Do we really WANT an E8/LL challenge? What would the E8 have to gain from it? SLU, RPI, and Hobart are the top three in the conference, and I don't think they'd do all too well in the E8 on their own. Win, and it's not necessarily a quality win. Lose, and it's potentially a bad loss.

Take this into account. The #4 team in the LL, by the standings, is Merchant Marine. Springfield gave those kids NIGHTMARES, and I'd have to think even 'Wick or UC cruises to an easy win over them. The NJAC and MAC can have their challenge. I'll be content hoping the E8 doesn't follow their lead.

Yeah, I mean the #3 and #6 team beat your #1 team this year.  That LL conference must be really inferior.

+k on this. Some E8 posters should promptly remove the pole from their asses.

Yikes! I definitely did NOT anticipate this kind of backlash. Allow me to explain myself a bit further and, hopefully, a bit more politely.

To me, the reason the NJAC/MAC conference challenge works is because the power structure in those conferences is fairly similar (or at least it was this season). You've got a definitive top tier (NJAC: The three teams in position to go 9-1, MAC: DelVal, but you could also have made a case for Lycoming before the wheels fell off there). You've got a definitive middle tier (NJAC: TCNJ, Kean, Willy P, MAC: LebVal, Wilkes, Albright, and now Lyco). And then you've got the rest of the teams with whom you could get competitive matchups.

With the E8/LL, I'm not sure that's there. For this exercise, I'll go down the standings, and line everyone up by where they rank in their respective conferences.

The conference-wide buzz with, say, a C-State/DelVal matchup, for instance, wouldn't be there for this year's #1 E8/#1 LL, which'd be Alfred/St. Lawrence. #2/#2 is probably a slight edge to the E8/LL (Montclair/LebVal vs. Springfield/Hobart). #3/#3 would give a slight edge to the E8/LL (Rowan/Wilkes vs. Fisher/RPI). #4/#4 is a definite edge to NJAC/MAC (TCNJ/Lyco vs. IC/Merchant Marine? As an IC alum, I know I wouldn't care nearly as much given what Springfield did to those guys). #5/#5 is a slight edge to the NJAC/MAC, although both would be good games (Kean-Albright, Hartwick-UR). #6/#6 is probably a wash (Willy P-Widener, Utica-Union).

So what do we have here? In six comparisons, we have two definitive edges for the NJAC/MAC, as well as one slight edge. For the proposed E8/LL challenge, they get two slight edges (partly based on the football traditions at Hobart and RPI, two of the most well-known LL programs), nothing definitive.

This is strictly my opinion, but based on this, I don't think an E8/LL conference challenge works as well as the NJAC/MAC. If some disagree, you're more than welcome to your own beliefs. And if some feel like there's a pole in my rear end, well, I guess you've got the right to believe that, too.

No poll needed  dlip was just defending his conference, which he does acknowledge is very down and out this year. It is not even debateable as to which is the better conference this year and really most. To dlip the E8 is the better conference period. Yet that much better to not have a conference challenge with the LL, no way. Obviously with the amount of teams involved (only 6 in the E8) and some travel it could be problematic.

[AUKaz00]

I know it's early, but you've got the AQ so there's no "looking ahead".... who do the AU posters WANT to see in the first round? Why?

I dont know if any of the E8 posters spoke up on this Max but, if at all possible, I would love to see an AU-Cortland matchup.

Obviously, it probably wont happen unless they both move on but it was one team that I always wanted to play while I was at AU.  Plus, Murray was the head coach there and Puccio was an all-american under his tenure so I think it would add an extra headline to the game...

I'm assuming it will probably be Delaware Valley and MUC with shots at the non-AQ teams... and since AU has two losses, they will be a lower seeded AQ team.  Which means they will probably be matched up against a higher seeded Pool C team or a lower seeded AQ team.  I think a matchup against Rowan (assuming they get the bid) or Suny Maritime is most likely in the future for the Saxons...

I would suspect MUC gets St. Lawrence in the first round. Despite being a Pool A, it strikes me that they're the weakest team in the region. Unless the committee won't seed an AQ 8th...

I have to find it hard to believe that a 5-5 or 4-6 team will not get an 8 seed regardless of how they got there.  If rankings were 1-32, St. Lawrence definitely would be 32.

I could see Alfred going to Cortland, especially if Montclair gets left out.  That would likely lead to an all-Maritime game with the winner going to Mount Union in round 2.  Then we'd be left with Alfred, Del Valley and two NJAC teams (Cortland, Rowan).  The NCAA may decide to save a few shekels and send Alfred to Cortland and Rowan to Doylestown.

[dewcrew88]

Do we really WANT an E8/LL challenge? What would the E8 have to gain from it? SLU, RPI, and Hobart are the top three in the conference, and I don't think they'd do all too well in the E8 on their own. Win, and it's not necessarily a quality win. Lose, and it's potentially a bad loss.

Take this into account. The #4 team in the LL, by the standings, is Merchant Marine. Springfield gave those kids NIGHTMARES, and I'd have to think even 'Wick or UC cruises to an easy win over them. The NJAC and MAC can have their challenge. I'll be content hoping the E8 doesn't follow their lead.

Yeah, I mean the #3 and #6 team beat your #1 team this year.  That LL conference must be really inferior.

+k on this. Some E8 posters should promptly remove the pole from their asses.

I'd love to see an e8/LL chsllenge. A New York thing, if you will.

[dewcrew88]

Do we really WANT an E8/LL challenge? What would the E8 have to gain from it? SLU, RPI, and Hobart are the top three in the conference, and I don't think they'd do all too well in the E8 on their own. Win, and it's not necessarily a quality win. Lose, and it's potentially a bad loss.

Take this into account. The #4 team in the LL, by the standings, is Merchant Marine. Springfield gave those kids NIGHTMARES, and I'd have to think even 'Wick or UC cruises to an easy win over them. The NJAC and MAC can have their challenge. I'll be content hoping the E8 doesn't follow their lead.

Yeah, I mean the #3 and #6 team beat your #1 team this year.  That LL conference must be really inferior.

You may not want to bring up the OOC performance of your conference's #1 team if you're going to defend the LL...

Correct me if these numbers are off a bit, but...

1) Head to head, the E8 went 8-2 against the LL this season and outscored them by 184 points.

2) The E8 is 22-4 OOC, the LL is 8-15.

3) 2 of the 7 teams in the LL will finish the regular season with a winning record, at least 4 of the 6 E8 teams will finish with a winning record

Look, I'm all for diplomacy between the two conferences. But this season, there isn't really much debate to be had. The E8 is stronger than the LL. In fact, it's much stronger. As I posted previously, this is likely an aberration for the LL. I'm sure that there have been years the reverse is true. But the day that stating basic facts is constituted as arrogance or "having a poll up our ass" is a sad one.

I would personally love to see IC play teams like Union, Hobart, St. Lawrence or RPI on a regular basis. It's a lot more compelling than Frostburg and Salisbury.

\Word for word, exactly. this year is a bad aberration. most years, it would be an extremely competitive series.

[Frank Rossi]

There's no need for a "Challenge" since it's happening anyway.  Let's look at the East Region's team numbers:

MAC - 8 Teams (7 Games)
NJAC - 10 Teams (9 Games)
NEFC - 16 Teams (7 Games)
ECFC - 8 Teams (7 Games)
E8 - 6 Teams (5 Games)
LL - 7 Teams (6 Games)

Now look at the scenario in 2012:

MAC - 10 Teams (9 Games)
NJAC - 9 Teams (8 Games)
NEFC - 16 Teams (7 Games)
ECFC - 8 Teams (7 Games)
E8 - 8 Teams (7 Games)
LL - 8 Teams (7 Games)

Let's eliminate the MAC here, since the MAC/NJAC Challenge will eat up one game in each, aside from Cortaca/Buffland.  Let's also eliminate one game from each of the NJAC teams based on the same premise.  Leaving out Cortaca, here are the OOC slots available in each conference in 2012:

MAC - 0
NJAC - (1 * 9 Teams) + 1 = 10
NEFC - (3 * 16 Teams) = 48
ECFC - (3 * 8 Teams) = 24
E8 - (3 * 8 Teams) = 24
LL - (3 * 8 Teams) = 24

This assumes everyone plays a ten-game schedule.  The NEFC and ECFC account for 72 open slots alone.  I think we know that most schools in the E8 and LL, aside from WPI based on location, won't try to schedule more than one NEFC/ECFC opponent a year (and most NEFC/ECFC schools won't either anymore to protect W/L records).  That means there are still 32 (30 with Cortaca & Buffland) open slots for the E8 and LL to schedule.  The NJAC and MAC have just 10 slots total (8 with Cortaca & Buffland) between them.  Either you're scheduling more NEFC/ECFC schools, or you're scheduling each other.  My prediction is that you'll see about 13-14 crossover games between the LL and E8 each year without creating a "Challenge."  Some teams may resort to the 9-game schedule, creating some noise in that estimate, but you get the picture.

This is just more proof of the concept I've been thumping for the last few weeks - the cream of the East schedules the cream of the East every year based on conference structure.  This will not be changing anytime soon based on economics (none of these teams will likely schedule OOR games now that Frostburg and Salisbury are heading into the E8, forcing a major travel game already for E8 teams each year).  Sitting there and saying that the East should have an expectation of an undefeated team every year is currently a non-starter, IMHO.

[Jonny Utah]

There's no need for a "Challenge" since it's happening anyway.  Let's look at the East Region's team numbers:

MAC - 8 Teams (7 Games)
NJAC - 10 Teams (9 Games)
NEFC - 16 Teams (7 Games)
ECFC - 8 Teams (7 Games)
E8 - 6 Teams (5 Games)
LL - 7 Teams (6 Games)

Now look at the scenario in 2012:

MAC - 10 Teams (9 Games)
NJAC - 9 Teams (8 Games)
NEFC - 16 Teams (7 Games)
ECFC - 8 Teams (7 Games)
E8 - 8 Teams (7 Games)
LL - 8 Teams (7 Games)

Let's eliminate the MAC here, since the MAC/NJAC Challenge will eat up one game in each, aside from Cortaca/Buffland.  Let's also eliminate one game from each of the NJAC teams based on the same premise.  Leaving out Cortaca, here are the OOC slots available in each conference in 2012:

MAC - 0
NJAC - (1 * 9 Teams) + 1 = 10
NEFC - (3 * 16 Teams) = 48
ECFC - (3 * 8 Teams) = 24
E8 - (3 * 8 Teams) = 24
LL - (3 * 8 Teams) = 24

This assumes everyone plays a ten-game schedule.  The NEFC and ECFC account for 72 open slots alone.  I think we know that most schools in the E8 and LL, aside from WPI based on location, won't try to schedule more than one NEFC/ECFC opponent a year (and most NEFC/ECFC schools won't either anymore to protect W/L records).  That means there are still 32 (30 with Cortaca & Buffland) open slots for the E8 and LL to schedule.  The NJAC and MAC have just 10 slots total (8 with Cortaca & Buffland) between them.  Either you're scheduling more NEFC/ECFC schools, or you're scheduling each other.  My prediction is that you'll see about 13-14 crossover games between the LL and E8 each year without creating a "Challenge."  Some teams may resort to the 9-game schedule, creating some noise in that estimate, but you get the picture.

This is just more proof of the concept I've been thumping for the last few weeks - the cream of the East schedules the cream of the East every year based on conference structure.  This will not be changing anytime soon based on economics (none of these teams will likely schedule OOR games now that Frostburg and Salisbury are heading into the E8, forcing a major travel game already for E8 teams each year).  Sitting there and saying that the East should have an expectation of an undefeated team every year is currently a non-starter, IMHO.

Well said.  Ithaca, SLU, Union and a few others alreayd have a few challanges.

[AUKaz00]

Hey, AU and IC already played the LL champion this year plus one other opponent.... what you're telling me you don't believe we KNEW St. L would be LL champ when we scheduled them??

Speaking of this, it is looking like Ithaca will have played the E8, LL and NJAC conference champ (or at least AQ) this year.  If only Lycoming could have won the MAC...

[Bombers798891]

There's no need for a "Challenge" since it's happening anyway.  Let's look at the East Region's team numbers:

MAC - 8 Teams (7 Games)
NJAC - 10 Teams (9 Games)
NEFC - 16 Teams (7 Games)
ECFC - 8 Teams (7 Games)
E8 - 6 Teams (5 Games)
LL - 7 Teams (6 Games)

Now look at the scenario in 2012:

MAC - 10 Teams (9 Games)
NJAC - 9 Teams (8 Games)
NEFC - 16 Teams (7 Games)
ECFC - 8 Teams (7 Games)
E8 - 8 Teams (7 Games)
LL - 8 Teams (7 Games)

Let's eliminate the MAC here, since the MAC/NJAC Challenge will eat up one game in each, aside from Cortaca/Buffland.  Let's also eliminate one game from each of the NJAC teams based on the same premise.  Leaving out Cortaca, here are the OOC slots available in each conference in 2012:

MAC - 0
NJAC - (1 * 9 Teams) + 1 = 10
NEFC - (3 * 16 Teams) = 48
ECFC - (3 * 8 Teams) = 24
E8 - (3 * 8 Teams) = 24
LL - (3 * 8 Teams) = 24

This assumes everyone plays a ten-game schedule.  The NEFC and ECFC account for 72 open slots alone.  I think we know that most schools in the E8 and LL, aside from WPI based on location, won't try to schedule more than one NEFC/ECFC opponent a year (and most NEFC/ECFC schools won't either anymore to protect W/L records).  That means there are still 32 (30 with Cortaca & Buffland) open slots for the E8 and LL to schedule.  The NJAC and MAC have just 10 slots total (8 with Cortaca & Buffland) between them.  Either you're scheduling more NEFC/ECFC schools, or you're scheduling each other.  My prediction is that you'll see about 13-14 crossover games between the LL and E8 each year without creating a "Challenge."  Some teams may resort to the 9-game schedule, creating some noise in that estimate, but you get the picture.

This is just more proof of the concept I've been thumping for the last few weeks - the cream of the East schedules the cream of the East every year based on conference structure.  This will not be changing anytime soon based on economics (none of these teams will likely schedule OOR games now that Frostburg and Salisbury are heading into the E8, forcing a major travel game already for E8 teams each year).  Sitting there and saying that the East should have an expectation of an undefeated team every year is currently a non-starter, IMHO.

Lousy OOC, costing Rowan, Montclair, Fisher and Cortland their 10-0 chances. Never changes.

[gordonmann]

Speaking of this, it is looking like Ithaca will have played the E8, LL and NJAC conference champ (or at least AQ) this year.  If only Lycoming could have won the MAC...]Speaking of this, it is looking like Ithaca will have played the E8, LL and NJAC conference champ (or at least AQ) this year.  If only Lycoming could have won the MAC...

Del Val had the same situation last year and this year.

2009 - Centennial Champ (JHU), ACFC Champ (Wesley) and near NJAC champ (Kean)
2010 - Centennial Champ (Muhlenberg), ACFC Champ (Wesley) and near PAC champ (W&J)

[AUKaz00]

I could see Alfred going to Cortland, especially if Montclair gets left out.  That would likely lead to an all-Maritime game with the winner going to Mount Union in round 2.  Then we'd be left with Alfred, Del Valley and two NJAC teams (Cortland, Rowan).  The NCAA may decide to save a few shekels and send Alfred to Cortland and Rowan to Doylestown.

Got thinking about this possibility a little more and what a juxtaposition it would be between the top two seeds.  Mount Union would get St. Lawrence followed by a Maritime.  Del Valley would get Rowan (or Montclair) and then Alfred/Cortland.  What a difference from the first to the second seed!

EDIT: Looks like I missed this conversation on the Playoff board.  My bad.

[Pat Coleman]

I know it's early, but you've got the AQ so there's no "looking ahead".... who do the AU posters WANT to see in the first round? Why?

I dont know if any of the E8 posters spoke up on this Max but, if at all possible, I would love to see an AU-Cortland matchup.

Obviously, it probably wont happen unless they both move on but it was one team that I always wanted to play while I was at AU.  Plus, Murray was the head coach there and Puccio was an all-american under his tenure so I think it would add an extra headline to the game...

I'm assuming it will probably be Delaware Valley and MUC with shots at the non-AQ teams... and since AU has two losses, they will be a lower seeded AQ team.  Which means they will probably be matched up against a higher seeded Pool C team or a lower seeded AQ team.  I think a matchup against Rowan (assuming they get the bid) or Suny Maritime is most likely in the future for the Saxons...

I would suspect MUC gets St. Lawrence in the first round. Despite being a Pool A, it strikes me that they're the weakest team in the region. Unless the committee won't seed an AQ 8th...

I have to find it hard to believe that a 5-5 or 4-6 team will not get an 8 seed regardless of how they got there.  If rankings were 1-32, St. Lawrence definitely would be 32.

There is no extra seeding advantage given to automatic bids.

[saxontad]

We looked a little shaky in the first quarter, but eventually settled down.  Good win.  Can't wait to find out who we play!!

On Saxon Warriors!!

[AUPepBand]

We looked a little shaky in the first quarter, but eventually settled down.  Good win.  Can't wait to find out who we play!!

On Saxon Warriors!!

Those two Thon TD's in the last minute of the first half certainly turned things around in a hurry! Assuming you went to the game, tad, did you see Pep's Pops and Company? Pep watched it with a few fans at Herrick Library on the webcast.

On Saxon Warriors!