FB: Empire 8

[SJFF82]

FA91...i hear ya and I may see ya (on Sat!), but until we find a power running game to mix in with the smoke and mirrors that is the present offense, Booby is correct....our scheme has a ceiling to it.

Booby, not meant to be a downer...it is just that 2 1/2 yrs ago when they announced this venue change, I pooh poohed it because I figured it would lose the packed stadium college atmosphere, and now having gone there Sat nite, I see that it indeed did.  For example, I went into the concourse to get some coffee (after 3 large beers which I might add was the only upside to this venue), in the second half and I could have fired off an automatic weapon and the only thing I woulda hit (besides my own foot) woulda been air....there was no one around, no atmosphere except concrete and empty concession stands.  At Fisher and UR, there are people and students everywhere and some buzz.

[fisheralum91]

82,
Ill hopefully see you there!
As for the atmosphere- I think we all understand what Gary is trying to do- but i agree- it needs to get back to the campuses.
Its the old cocktail party theory....If you go to a party in a small room where its wall to wall people - it seems like a great party..put the same people in a room 4 times the size- the party is a flop.

[SJFF82]

agreed, and to the beat the dead horse, I will add that it would be like moving the Teddi Dance (annual 24 hr fundraiser dance for Camp Good Days also started by Gary Mervis for those who dont know) to the Riverside Convention Center from its 30 year traditional location of on Fisher campus.

sometimes bigger isnt better....

[Bombers798891]

But if the end goal of every team is to win it all then you just know that isn't going to fly against the top level teams in the country...so why implement an offense thats absolute heighest ceiling is like a 3rd round exit in the big tourney?  I don't get it.   

IDK, I'm cynical, but to me, as D-III football currently stands, you really need a special collection of players to reach the end goal of winning the whole thing. And by that, I mean a once in a generation guy like Mark Robinson. If you don't have guys of that quality, I think you need to adjust your goals and expectations. And if you take an honest look at most programs, many years, there just isn't the talent to knock off a school like Whitewater or Mount Union. So why not use "smoke and mirrors" and get to the third round of the playoffs? It's not like playing it straight against those two schools has netted a lot of success. I guess what I'm asking, crudely perhaps, is let's suppose Fisher went to a more diversified, traditional offensive scheme. Man to man, with the kind of kids they are getting into the program right, would they have the talent to beat MUC?

Now, it may sound like I'm simply advocating we abandon all hope and bow to our purple overlords. I'm not. This is not a "If you can't beat them, why try?" situation.

I'm just wondering aloud if the third round of the playoffs is, given our current situation, a perfectly valid goal to set for most teams most seasons? Especially because Mount keeps coming East, and they seem to have an easier time Pre-Stagg than UWW. If you get those special guys, those couple amazing recruiting classes in a row, I'm all for loading up the guns and taking your best shot. But I do think there's a lot of value in taking what you can get.

[pg04]

I agree with Bombers.  However, taste of Final 4 is so recent (although it is becoming not so recent...) that I would assume that Fisher fans have trouble accepting anything less than that.  I know when Brockport came within a bad play call of beating John Carroll in 2002 and advancing to the Final 4, there was definitely an expectation of making it further.  There isn't much further than that, so it's not that hard to extrapolate wanting to win that final game...

[Bombers798891]

I agree with Bombers.  However, taste of Final 4 is so recent (although it is becoming not so recent...) that I would assume that Fisher fans have trouble accepting anything less than that.  I know when Brockport came within a bad play call of beating John Carroll in 2002 and advancing to the Final 4, there was definitely an expectation of making it further.  There isn't much further than that, so it's not that hard to extrapolate wanting to win that final game...

I felt similarly after dropping the "Blizzard Bowl" to RPI in 2003. How long did it take you to adjust to "the program is just on a different level?"

[pg04]

I agree with Bombers.  However, taste of Final 4 is so recent (although it is becoming not so recent...) that I would assume that Fisher fans have trouble accepting anything less than that.  I know when Brockport came within a bad play call of beating John Carroll in 2002 and advancing to the Final 4, there was definitely an expectation of making it further.  There isn't much further than that, so it's not that hard to extrapolate wanting to win that final game...

I felt similarly after dropping the "Blizzard Bowl" to RPI in 2003. How long did it take you to adjust to "the program is just on a different level?"

I think the dropoff for Brockport has been much more pronounced than it ever has been for Ithaca...so I graduated in 2004 and it wasn't much after that where I thought a good conference run was a good season, to be honest, because the record just kept getting worse and worse...  I can still say, though, that the only years Brockport made it to NCAA playoffs were the years I was attending school there.  So at least it was entertaining while I was there...

[maxpower]

I don't know if there's any school in the East Region (apart from... idk Delval?) that wouldn't be happy with a season that ended in third-round of the playoffs. So if your BS offense gets you there, why not? Usually coaches use those offenses to get the most out of the talent they are presented with (see that article on Grantland that floated around the NESCAC boards). If SJF's coaching staff implemented this offense, it's probably because if they did do a traditional offense, they couldn't match up against teams like Alfred. Not to belabor the point, but as Bombers said, unless you have Mark Robinson (and really unless you have about five Mark Robinsons) I wouldn't worry too much about what's gonna beat UMU or UWW.

[sjfcards]

About the atmosphere at the Courage Bowl, I was not at the game last weekend, but did go last year. I thought it was something cool and different for a DIII game to have the game at a "big" stadium. But, I did think there was a drop off from the atmosphere when the games were on campus. Especially at U of R, with the students on the hill, and the band in the mix with everyone else.

BUT, I do think that if they can make the game a community thing, where a big crowd will go, even if they don't have an affiliation to the school, then the game will have something special. Imagine a game where you have two big student sections on each side of the field, a student band, and a full stadium with 10-15 thousand at the game. That would be an incredible atmosphere for any game, let alone a DIII game. I don't know if that is going to happen, but I don't have a problem with trying to create something special. You have to lay the groundwork if you are going to create something.

(Odd comparison alert), It is kind of like Google spending all of their Venture Capital money on engineering talent and infrastructure before they really started to monetize their webpage. The idea was that if they could have talent and a base network that was far above what others have, the money(crowds) would come.

[boobyhasgameyo]

Fair enough, valid points.  To be clear, I would consider Fisher making it to the 3rd round of the playoffs as a great success for the season.  I was more speaking from the perspective of the coaches on the team.  We all recognize that the teams that are national contenders don't run the "smoke and mirror" type offenses and that by doing so is pretty much conceding you do not think you have the talent to compete with the great teams running a more conventional/power offense.  I guess it comes down to the preference of philosophy - We will design our team based off the proven ingredients of past successes and if we experience growing pains until the tides eventually turn in the long run, so be it vs. We will acknowledge our ceiling and design our team accordingly to go for the best record this year and this year only.

Personally I think one philosophy cultivates a culture of hard work and taking some lumps (aka not winning as many games) on the path towards improvement and I think the other cultivates complacency and just try and coast towards a bunch of 7-3/8-2 type seasons and just pray eventually you get a once in a decade type talent like Mark Robinson. 

[boobyhasgameyo]

Thinking about it further - I guess recruiting is a major factor to consider.  If you go for the long term method I mentioned at the risk of some subpar records maybe you will lose some key recruits because they don't see your program as a viable and winning one...if you go with the near sighted approach to maximize the current year's team the long term effect will be sustained records that are superior than most programs and by extension become an attractive option to recruits. 

I think at this point I'm on the verge of circular reasoning...I don't want to go cross-eyed so I'm going to stop now.   

[Bombers798891]

Thinking about it further - I guess recruiting is a major factor to consider.  If you go for the long term method I mentioned at the risk of some subpar records maybe you will lose some key recruits because they don't see your program as a viable and winning one...if you go with the near sighted approach to maximize the current year's team the long term effect will be sustained records that are superior than most programs and by extension become an attractive option to recruits. 

I think at this point I'm on the verge of circular reasoning...I don't want to go cross-eyed so I'm going to stop now.   

See, that's the challenge.

It's like the whole Hendel/Zappia thing last season. Short term, Zappia had a better year than Hendel probably. Maybe they go 5-5 with Hendel and break the streak and it hurts recruiting. But then maybe they're better set up for this season and next. What was the right call? Impossible to know. But I know it's a call I would never want to have to make.

[sjfcards]

Thinking about it further - I guess recruiting is a major factor to consider.  If you go for the long term method I mentioned at the risk of some subpar records maybe you will lose some key recruits because they don't see your program as a viable and winning one...if you go with the near sighted approach to maximize the current year's team the long term effect will be sustained records that are superior than most programs and by extension become an attractive option to recruits. 

I think at this point I'm on the verge of circular reasoning...I don't want to go cross-eyed so I'm going to stop now.   

Then again, a lot of the talent and pieces that went into the Fisher teams that went deep into the playoffs were recruited when Fisher was building the program. The records from each season when I was in school got better and better(1 win Freshman year to a bowl win my senior year) , leading up to the teams that went deep into the playoffs the first few years after I left. I think the build up was a product of the commitment to a certain way of playing on Offense and Defense, that got Fisher into the position of being a national contender.

I guess my point is that you can recruit top talent by building towards a regional/national power. That was the blue print for Fisher when they were on the way up, and I think they have gotten away from that the last few years (see Blaise leaving).

[dlippiel]

Any comments/insight regarding U of R for those who attended the Courage Bowl. WTF happened? Were they that outclassed by SJF? Any insight and thoughts on U of R would be appreciated.

[fisheralum91]

Dlip,
Saw the game....from what I can gather two things were glaring.. First, Fisher was able to shut down the UR running game, and second the Fisher offense seemed to click.  I think the score doesnt show the real outcome, but suffice it to say Fisher had a good night, and UR had a real bad one- if that makes sense.