FB: Empire 8

[SJFF82]

Thinking about it further - I guess recruiting is a major factor to consider.  If you go for the long term method I mentioned at the risk of some subpar records maybe you will lose some key recruits because they don't see your program as a viable and winning one...if you go with the near sighted approach to maximize the current year's team the long term effect will be sustained records that are superior than most programs and by extension become an attractive option to recruits. 

I think at this point I'm on the verge of circular reasoning...I don't want to go cross-eyed so I'm going to stop now.   

Then again, a lot of the talent and pieces that went into the Fisher teams that went deep into the playoffs were recruited when Fisher was building the program. The records from each season when I was in school got better and better(1 win Freshman year to a bowl win my senior year) , leading up to the teams that went deep into the playoffs the first few years after I left. I think the build up was a product of the commitment to a certain way of playing on Offense and Defense, that got Fisher into the position of being a national contender.

I guess my point is that you can recruit top talent by building towards a regional/national power. That was the blue print for Fisher when they were on the way up, and I think they have gotten away from that the last few years (see Blaise leaving).

I think the general consensus over the years on the Boards is that the Bills/new stadium were the reason for Fisher's 'recruiting' success....

[SJFF82]

I agree with Bombers.  However, taste of Final 4 is so recent (although it is becoming not so recent...) that I would assume that Fisher fans have trouble accepting anything less than that.  I know when Brockport came within a bad play call of beating John Carroll in 2002 and advancing to the Final 4, there was definitely an expectation of making it further.  There isn't much further than that, so it's not that hard to extrapolate wanting to win that final game...

spot on PG04...and the idea is further that when they came so close to the final game, they did it because they could march the ball into the Red Zone against MUC and punch a 4 & 1 in from the goalline to keep it close.  This current chuck and duck, screen, option, zone or whatever offense is never going to sniff a December 4th quarter inside the 10 at Alliance....and the future 'Mark Robinsons' aren't going to be impressed by their predecessor's 15 carries for 67 yrds per game stats

[Bombers798891]

My two cents on Rochester-Fisher:

I think we've been a little too swayed by two things:

1) A pair of close games in 2008 and 2009 (and even a 2010 game that was back-and-forth for 20 minutes)
2) That this game is a rivalry--and a great cause--that both teams get up for

This can help us forget the obvious: Fisher's clearly a better football program than Rochester. Over the last three + years (after those amazing Fisher teams) the Cardinals have gone 21-9 and Rochester has gone 12-15--removing the games against each other. And Fisher's playing in a tougher league (although they were probably equal in 2008.)

Fisher should be beating Rochester handily. Rochester is a below average program playing in (right now) a mediocre conference, and Fisher's a very good one playing in a good conference. Granted 52-3, but I was less surprised to see that than I was at the 35-33 game from 2009.

This sort of happened in Cortaca for awhile in the late 90's-early 00's. I remember this heading into Cortaca in 2004. Cortland had won three of the last five games, and they were all close, but from 1999 to that point, Cortland had gone 30-24  against everyone else, while Ithaca went 47-14. Ithaca won by 25 that year, and people seemed stunned. I didn't really get it, because for that six year stretch, IC was clearly the better program. The close games (and losses) were the ones that seemed to be the ones you wouldn't expect. I wondered why IC wasn't winning these games by 2-3 touchdowns every year.

I'm having the same reaction to Rochester/Fisher. I just can't figure out why Fisher isn't winning these games more handily, because in my view, they should be.

Now, this is where people tell me that football isn't played on paper, that teams and players get fired up and things happen and that explains it. I don't really buy that that explains it, but if you want to throw it out there, I'll listen

[Bombers798891]

I agree with Bombers.  However, taste of Final 4 is so recent (although it is becoming not so recent...) that I would assume that Fisher fans have trouble accepting anything less than that.  I know when Brockport came within a bad play call of beating John Carroll in 2002 and advancing to the Final 4, there was definitely an expectation of making it further.  There isn't much further than that, so it's not that hard to extrapolate wanting to win that final game...

spot on PG04...and the idea is further that when they came so close to the final game, they did it because they could march the ball into the Red Zone against MUC and punch a 4 & 1 in from the goalline to keep it close.  This current chuck and duck, screen, option, zone or whatever offense is never going to sniff a December 4th quarter inside the 10 at Alliance....and the future 'Mark Robinsons' aren't going to be impressed by their predecessor's 15 carries for 67 yrds per game stats

Wanted to look at these two statements. Was Fisher successful because they were running that style offense, or because the players that enabled them to run that offense were just that much better than the ones running this current style? Do you think, if Fisher were to run the style of offense they ran in 2003-2007, would they be more successful this season?

The second part is interesting. You never really know what's going to bring a recruit in. But remember something: Fisher isn't Springfield that's just going to run the triple option. If the coaching staff sees who looks like Mark Robinson 2.0, I'm sure they'd institute an offense centered around his skill set. Would they catch his eye? Maybe, maybe not. But I think they'd do okay

[dlippiel]

playing in (right now) a mediocre conference,

dlip would take mediocre right now believe him, unfortunately he feels after the first three weeks the LL may even be below mediocre.

[dlippiel]

Dlip,
Saw the game....from what I can gather two things were glaring.. First, Fisher was able to shut down the UR running game, and second the Fisher offense seemed to click.  I think the score doesnt show the real outcome, but suffice it to say Fisher had a good night, and UR had a real bad one- if that makes sense.

Thanks for the insight, this definitely makes sense to dlip.

[Yanks 99]

Dlip,
Saw the game....from what I can gather two things were glaring.. First, Fisher was able to shut down the UR running game, and second the Fisher offense seemed to click.  I think the score doesnt show the real outcome, but suffice it to say Fisher had a good night, and UR had a real bad one- if that makes sense.

Thanks for the insight, this definitely makes sense to dlip.

Not being a wise guy here dlip...I know the Liberty League is getting a bit of a bad rap right now, with Union struggling and all...but it could be worse.  The ECFC is an amazing 2-17 overall right now as a conference (the only two wins belong to SUNY-Maritime against a terrible Western Connecticut team who has been outscored 130-17 in the last two games, and a close 13-7 win over LL cellar dweller Merchant Marine 13-7).  How that league is allowed to get an auto bid will drive me crazy until the day I die...

[dlippiel]

Dlip,
Saw the game....from what I can gather two things were glaring.. First, Fisher was able to shut down the UR running game, and second the Fisher offense seemed to click.  I think the score doesnt show the real outcome, but suffice it to say Fisher had a good night, and UR had a real bad one- if that makes sense.

Thanks for the insight, this definitely makes sense to dlip.

Not being a wise guy here dlip...I know the Liberty League is getting a bit of a bad rap right now, with Union struggling and all...but it could be worse.  The ECFC is an amazing 2-17 overall right now as a conference (the only two wins belong to SUNY-Maritime against a terrible Western Connecticut team who has been outscored 130-17 in the last two games, and a close 13-7 win over LL cellar dweller Merchant Marine 13-7).  How that league is allowed to get an auto bid will drive me crazy until the day I die...

Well said Yanks and dlip agrees. He just tends to be hard on the LL and still struggles to handle the league having some of the difficuluty it is having against "good" teams ya know. You are correct though, it could be worse.

[lewdogg11]

Dlip,
Saw the game....from what I can gather two things were glaring.. First, Fisher was able to shut down the UR running game, and second the Fisher offense seemed to click.  I think the score doesnt show the real outcome, but suffice it to say Fisher had a good night, and UR had a real bad one- if that makes sense.

Thanks for the insight, this definitely makes sense to dlip.

Not being a wise guy here dlip...I know the Liberty League is getting a bit of a bad rap right now, with Union struggling and all...but it could be worse.  The ECFC is an amazing 2-17 overall right now as a conference (the only two wins belong to SUNY-Maritime against a terrible Western Connecticut team who has been outscored 130-17 in the last two games, and a close 13-7 win over LL cellar dweller Merchant Marine 13-7).  How that league is allowed to get an auto bid will drive me crazy until the day I die...

Well said Yanks and dlip agrees. He just tends to be hard on the LL and still struggles to handle the league having some of the difficuluty it is having against "good" teams ya know. You are correct though, it could be worse.

It 'could' be worse, but it shouldn't be as bad as it is.  There are some proud programs in the LL and some historically strong programs that aren't performing at a high level over the last few years.  On the other end of the spectrum, you see some E8 programs getting better every year.  Being regionally close and pulling from a similar pool of kids, I expect and will continue to expect more from the LL.

I kinda feel that the Ithaca people may feel similar.  Other programs have gotten better and they've not quite improved as much, or even regressed some.

[Bombers798891]

I kinda feel that the Ithaca people may feel similar.  Other programs have gotten better and they've not quite improved as much, or even regressed some.

I have friends (older ones) who are real bitter about it. They always couch every discussion about the current team in a "The 1991 team wouldn't do..." and I mean every discussion.

My frustration is that IC seems way more capable of blowing winnable games now. I don't expect national titles, but losing at home to Curry in the NCAA's? Or to mediocre Cortland teams costing them home NCAA games?

I don't know if LL teams are not playing up to their potential or if they're just this bad (may as well say it) but it's surprising to see

[SJFF82]

I agree with Bombers.  However, taste of Final 4 is so recent (although it is becoming not so recent...) that I would assume that Fisher fans have trouble accepting anything less than that.  I know when Brockport came within a bad play call of beating John Carroll in 2002 and advancing to the Final 4, there was definitely an expectation of making it further.  There isn't much further than that, so it's not that hard to extrapolate wanting to win that final game...

spot on PG04...and the idea is further that when they came so close to the final game, they did it because they could march the ball into the Red Zone against MUC and punch a 4 & 1 in from the goalline to keep it close.  This current chuck and duck, screen, option, zone or whatever offense is never going to sniff a December 4th quarter inside the 10 at Alliance....and the future 'Mark Robinsons' aren't going to be impressed by their predecessor's 15 carries for 67 yrds per game stats

Wanted to look at these two statements. Was Fisher successful because they were running that style offense, or because the players that enabled them to run that offense were just that much better than the ones running this current style? Do you think, if Fisher were to run the style of offense they ran in 2003-2007, would they be more successful this season?

The second part is interesting. You never really know what's going to bring a recruit in. But remember something: Fisher isn't Springfield that's just going to run the triple option. If the coaching staff sees who looks like Mark Robinson 2.0, I'm sure they'd institute an offense centered around his skill set. Would they catch his eye? Maybe, maybe not. But I think they'd do okay

I do not think Fisher would be successful running their 2003-2007 offense this year because as you point out, apparently they aint got the right horses in the stable (I say apparently because I will assume the coaching staff would run the 03-07 offense with the right horses).  But as another poster aptly pointed out, (SJFCARDS?), perhaps they could attempt to advance a more traditional offense with hope of still competing at high level regionally and also preserving the perception of a traditional offense for future recruits.  Who knows?

I guess you 'run' with what you got on the field now and recruit in the off-season as best you can.  Of course I wish we had a Mark Robinson type rushing attack to compliment our very good passing game, but we dont so any way we slice this is merely speculation/opinion/wishful thinking...blah blahh blah

[Yanks 99]

I am going to go out on a limb and say the recent drop in "quality", if you will, of the Liberty League has more to do with current tuition costs in a terrible economy then it does with quality of coaching, not inspiring recruits to come to their universities, etc.

Take a look at current tuition costs for the Liberty League schools.  Please note that all of these were looked up relatively quickly (I will fully admit, I could be off a little if someone else finds a more credible source), and that only tuition, room, and board were added to the totals.  No additional expenses, school fees, or books/supplies were added:

Liberty League:

RPI: $53,575
Union: $54,273
Hobart: $53,767
SLU: $53,740
Rochester: $53,922
WPI: $51,384
MMA: $2,200 (additional suck not added)

Average Liberty League Tuition Cost (without MMA): $53,444


Compare that with the E8 schools (not including Frostburg or Salisbury), and Cortland and Montclair State.  Please note that Alfred and the state schools have swinging ranges based on whether a student is from "in-state" or what program they pick (in Alfred's case):

E8:

SJFC: $36,770
Ithaca: $48,132
Hartwick: $44,865
Springfield: $34,680
Utica: $42,166
Alfred: $26,778 - $37,472

Average E8 Tuition Cost (using Alfred highest tuition cost): $40,681


Cortland: $17,634 - $26,684
Montclair State: $21,908 - $30,656


I am beginning to think the drop in quality play within the Liberty League is more economic based than anything else.  Has the cost discrepancy always been there?  Sure...but it was more manageable in a relatively stable and growing economy (1990 to mid-2008).  While the rest of the country is exploding from an economic crisis...college institutions keep plugging along like "nothing to see here" and continue to raise their tuition costs above and beyond inflation.  I think maybe we have finally seen/hit a tipping point.  Parents/students are really looking at the real world right now...and see that new graduates, no matter where they are from, are having a difficult time finding any job right after graduation...let alone a good/high paying one.  Tuition costs (and available financial aid) can fluctuate based on a families situation...but if my daughter were about to go to college, and she had no idea what she was going to do after with her life (like most 18 year olds)...these numbers would scare me.  On average, a LL school costs almost $13,000 a year more than the E8 schools listed.  Almost $25,000 more per year than a SUNY school like Cortland.  That means over 4 years (again...just in general terms), we would have to find almost $52,000 more (whether grants, scholarships, student loans, or cold hard cash) to get a "similar" degree and hope for the best that the economy has turned around.

This isn't a perfect analogy...but is it any wonder that Cortland continues to do well (as they always have), and Buff State seems to be turning the corner?  Could this be the reason that parents/kids are finally saying "I know it's Ithaca...but $48,000 a year is a lot of money."  Something to think about before we totally crush the LL coaches (or even Ithaca) for the perception of "underperforming" here...

[lewdogg11]

I am going to go out on a limb and say the recent drop in "quality", if you will, of the Liberty League has more to do with current tuition costs in a terrible economy then it does with quality of coaching, not inspiring recruits to come to their universities, etc.

Take a look at current tuition costs for the Liberty League schools.  Please note that all of these were looked up relatively quickly (I will fully admit, I could be off a little if someone else finds a more credible source), and that only tuition, room, and board were added to the totals.  No additional expenses, school fees, or books/supplies were added:

Liberty League:

RPI: $53,575
Union: $54,273
Hobart: $53,767
SLU: $53,740
Rochester: $53,922
WPI: $51,384
MMA: $2,200 (additional suck not added)

Average Liberty League Tuition Cost (without MMA): $53,444


Compare that with the E8 schools (not including Frostburg or Salisbury), and Cortland and Montclair State.  Please note that Alfred and the state schools have swinging ranges based on whether a student is from "in-state" or what program they pick (in Alfred's case):

E8:

SJFC: $36,770
Ithaca: $48,132
Hartwick: $44,865
Springfield: $34,680
Utica: $42,166
Alfred: $26,778 - $37,472

Average E8 Tuition Cost (using Alfred highest tuition cost): $40,681


Cortland: $17,634 - $26,684
Montclair State: $21,908 - $30,656


I am beginning to think the drop in quality play within the Liberty League is more economic based than anything else.  Has the cost discrepancy always been there?  Sure...but it was more manageable in a relatively stable and growing economy (1990 to mid-2008).  While the rest of the country is exploding from an economic crisis...college institutions keep plugging along like "nothing to see here" and continue to raise their tuition costs above and beyond inflation.  I think maybe we have finally seen/hit a tipping point.  Parents/students are really looking at the real world right now...and see that new graduates, no matter where they are from, are having a difficult time finding any job right after graduation...let alone a good/high paying one.  Tuition costs (and available financial aid) can fluctuate based on a families situation...but if my daughter were about to go to college, and she had no idea what she was going to do after with her life (like most 18 year olds)...these numbers would scare me.  On average, a LL school costs almost $13,000 a year more than the E8 schools listed.  Almost $25,000 more per year than a SUNY school like Cortland.  That means over 4 years (again...just in general terms), we would have to find almost $52,000 more (whether grants, scholarships, student loans, or cold hard cash) to get a "similar" degree and hope for the best that the economy has turned around.

This isn't a perfect analogy...but is it any wonder that Cortland continues to do well (as they always have), and Buff State seems to be turning the corner?  Could this be the reason that parents/kids are finally saying "I know it's Ithaca...but $48,000 a year is a lot of money."  Something to think about before we totally crush the LL coaches (or even Ithaca) for the perception of "underperforming" here...

+K  very good post.  Makes a lot of sense.

[Bombers798891]

I am going to go out on a limb and say the recent drop in "quality", if you will, of the Liberty League has more to do with current tuition costs in a terrible economy then it does with quality of coaching, not inspiring recruits to come to their universities, etc.

Take a look at current tuition costs for the Liberty League schools.  Please note that all of these were looked up relatively quickly (I will fully admit, I could be off a little if someone else finds a more credible source), and that only tuition, room, and board were added to the totals.  No additional expenses, school fees, or books/supplies were added:

Liberty League:

RPI: $53,575
Union: $54,273
Hobart: $53,767
SLU: $53,740
Rochester: $53,922
WPI: $51,384
MMA: $2,200 (additional suck not added)

Average Liberty League Tuition Cost (without MMA): $53,444


Compare that with the E8 schools (not including Frostburg or Salisbury), and Cortland and Montclair State.  Please note that Alfred and the state schools have swinging ranges based on whether a student is from "in-state" or what program they pick (in Alfred's case):

E8:

SJFC: $36,770
Ithaca: $48,132
Hartwick: $44,865
Springfield: $34,680
Utica: $42,166
Alfred: $26,778 - $37,472

Average E8 Tuition Cost (using Alfred highest tuition cost): $40,681


Cortland: $17,634 - $26,684
Montclair State: $21,908 - $30,656


I am beginning to think the drop in quality play within the Liberty League is more economic based than anything else.  Has the cost discrepancy always been there?  Sure...but it was more manageable in a relatively stable and growing economy (1990 to mid-2008).  While the rest of the country is exploding from an economic crisis...college institutions keep plugging along like "nothing to see here" and continue to raise their tuition costs above and beyond inflation.  I think maybe we have finally seen/hit a tipping point.  Parents/students are really looking at the real world right now...and see that new graduates, no matter where they are from, are having a difficult time finding any job right after graduation...let alone a good/high paying one.  Tuition costs (and available financial aid) can fluctuate based on a families situation...but if my daughter were about to go to college, and she had no idea what she was going to do after with her life (like most 18 year olds)...these numbers would scare me.  On average, a LL school costs almost $13,000 a year more than the E8 schools listed.  Almost $25,000 more per year than a SUNY school like Cortland.  That means over 4 years (again...just in general terms), we would have to find almost $52,000 more (whether grants, scholarships, student loans, or cold hard cash) to get a "similar" degree and hope for the best that the economy has turned around.

This isn't a perfect analogy...but is it any wonder that Cortland continues to do well (as they always have), and Buff State seems to be turning the corner?  Could this be the reason that parents/kids are finally saying "I know it's Ithaca...but $48,000 a year is a lot of money."  Something to think about before we totally crush the LL coaches (or even Ithaca) for the perception of "underperforming" here...

That knife can cut both ways though.

Now, I agree that the cost of many schools is getting out of hand--IC being one. And there are always going to be kids who want to go to a school but don't have the money or the grades. But I think this ignores that their are also kids who don't consider certain schools that might be "easier" for them to get into, for whichever reason. I was talking to an IC coach (not football) about this last year as it related to recruiting against Cortland, and they said there's certain types of kids who could get into both IC and Cortland who just don't consider Cortland an option.

This isn't meant to be a slight against any school, or a pronouncement on the quality of their education. I guess what I mean is, I think we look at this in a one-sided manner. Sure, a high cost of attendance and hard academic standards are barriers for some kids. The cost factor seems especially prudent today. That said, high academic standards (which many of these expensive schools are associated with) can draw certain kids in.

*Yeah, not every expensive school is great and not every inexpensive one is bad. No, I'm not trying to make IC sound better than the other E8 schools. I'm just speaking very, very, generally.

I've heard Phil Neumann is, for example, an outstanding journalism student. So he's in the Park School, which is an outstanding communications school. I'm sure he could have gone to Cortland State (or lots of places) and studied Journalism for a lot less. But it's also very possible that the Communications department at IC, while challenging, is exactly what made him pick Ithaca. And I have a feeling this sort of thing happens more at the D-III level than we give it credit for.

[Ethelred the Unready]

I am going to go out on a limb and say the recent drop in "quality", if you will, of the Liberty League has more to do with current tuition costs in a terrible economy then it does with quality of coaching, not inspiring recruits to come to their universities, etc.

Take a look at current tuition costs for the Liberty League schools.  Please note that all of these were looked up relatively quickly (I will fully admit, I could be off a little if someone else finds a more credible source), and that only tuition, room, and board were added to the totals.  No additional expenses, school fees, or books/supplies were added:

Liberty League:

RPI: $53,575
Union: $54,273
Hobart: $53,767
SLU: $53,740
Rochester: $53,922
WPI: $51,384
MMA: $2,200 (additional suck not added)

Average Liberty League Tuition Cost (without MMA): $53,444


Compare that with the E8 schools (not including Frostburg or Salisbury), and Cortland and Montclair State.  Please note that Alfred and the state schools have swinging ranges based on whether a student is from "in-state" or what program they pick (in Alfred's case):

E8:

SJFC: $36,770
Ithaca: $48,132
Hartwick: $44,865
Springfield: $34,680
Utica: $42,166
Alfred: $26,778 - $37,472

Average E8 Tuition Cost (using Alfred highest tuition cost): $40,681


Cortland: $17,634 - $26,684
Montclair State: $21,908 - $30,656


I am beginning to think the drop in quality play within the Liberty League is more economic based than anything else.  Has the cost discrepancy always been there?  Sure...but it was more manageable in a relatively stable and growing economy (1990 to mid-2008).  While the rest of the country is exploding from an economic crisis...college institutions keep plugging along like "nothing to see here" and continue to raise their tuition costs above and beyond inflation.  I think maybe we have finally seen/hit a tipping point.  Parents/students are really looking at the real world right now...and see that new graduates, no matter where they are from, are having a difficult time finding any job right after graduation...let alone a good/high paying one.  Tuition costs (and available financial aid) can fluctuate based on a families situation...but if my daughter were about to go to college, and she had no idea what she was going to do after with her life (like most 18 year olds)...these numbers would scare me.  On average, a LL school costs almost $13,000 a year more than the E8 schools listed.  Almost $25,000 more per year than a SUNY school like Cortland.  That means over 4 years (again...just in general terms), we would have to find almost $52,000 more (whether grants, scholarships, student loans, or cold hard cash) to get a "similar" degree and hope for the best that the economy has turned around.

This isn't a perfect analogy...but is it any wonder that Cortland continues to do well (as they always have), and Buff State seems to be turning the corner?  Could this be the reason that parents/kids are finally saying "I know it's Ithaca...but $48,000 a year is a lot of money."  Something to think about before we totally crush the LL coaches (or even Ithaca) for the perception of "underperforming" here...

As someone who's son just graduated (and has a job) from one of those schools, I'd say if he were a freshman this year, we'd be looking at schools other than the ones he visited.  But would he have a job in his field if he got a SUNY degree instead of UofR?  I don't think so.  So it's a tough call..