FB: Empire 8

[dlippiel]

dlip is just a little surprised to see that the Pride didn't receive any votes in the top 25 voting. Not blown away, just surprised thats all.

[Bombers798891]

Updated E8 rankings.


4) SJF: Ouch. OUCH. From dominating the Courage Bowl to getting dominated by Hobart. It doesn't get easier with Alfred coming to town, and the question I have to ask is, which Fisher team will we get?
5) Ithaca: No change to the #5 spot in the bye week, although an IC win and a Fisher loss may see the Bombers move up the list. Up next for the Bombers: Hartwick, in a tough road environment (the Cage).

I'm flipping these two right now. Now, before people think I've lost my mind, or am betraying my own internal logic, hear me out. This is not me saying IC will beat Fisher in two weeks. Or that IC will finish the season ahead of Fisher in the E8. It is simply a statement of where I think the teams are now.

Both schools are 2-1. They each opened their season with close, unimpressive home wins, so I'd put them about even at that point. But Ithaca's other two games have put them ahead. Yes, Fisher beat Rochester 52-3 while IC only beat Union 37-18, but Union is better than Rochester (as evidenced by the game yesterday, which Union led comfortably most of the way) and Ithaca was playing a true road game, not a neutral site game. I'd have them roughly the same here too, although if I had to put one of them ahead, it would be Fisher, because Union spent the whole game shooting themselves in the foot.

But in their only loss, IC hangs with the 2nd-best E8 team on the road for most of the game, whereas Fisher gets killed at home by what looks like the best team in the LL. Hobart may prove to be good, and in fact better than Salisbury, but with five minutes to go, Ithaca is down 14-7 and Fisher is down 56-14. Style points matter to me, so amazingly, I have found something that underrates the Bombers.

Hobart is big, physical and athletic on both sides of the ball.  I don't believe Fisher really expected Hobart to be that good.  I don't care what league they are in, Hobart is a very good football team.

Bombers: I considered it for a minute or two, but I can't do that quite yet. Ithaca's had one solid offensive showing in three games, and I need proof that what happened in Schenectady wasn't a one-time performance before I put them higher than fifth. A solid win at Hartwick, in a road environment they've struggled in in the past, would be a big help.

Fair point. I love IC against Team Boltus next week though. (Sorry Yanks). The Wick offense looks average at best, terrible at worst. Ten turnovers in three weeks is not good when you're facing an Ithaca team that has forced 11 in three games.

I think Ithaca will really benefit from the week off to get Hendel further entrenched as the starter and IC, despite their offensive issues, have the best offense the Wick has seen all year. 34-14 Bombers.

[Yanks 99]

Updated E8 rankings.


4) SJF: Ouch. OUCH. From dominating the Courage Bowl to getting dominated by Hobart. It doesn't get easier with Alfred coming to town, and the question I have to ask is, which Fisher team will we get?
5) Ithaca: No change to the #5 spot in the bye week, although an IC win and a Fisher loss may see the Bombers move up the list. Up next for the Bombers: Hartwick, in a tough road environment (the Cage).

I'm flipping these two right now. Now, before people think I've lost my mind, or am betraying my own internal logic, hear me out. This is not me saying IC will beat Fisher in two weeks. Or that IC will finish the season ahead of Fisher in the E8. It is simply a statement of where I think the teams are now.

Both schools are 2-1. They each opened their season with close, unimpressive home wins, so I'd put them about even at that point. But Ithaca's other two games have put them ahead. Yes, Fisher beat Rochester 52-3 while IC only beat Union 37-18, but Union is better than Rochester (as evidenced by the game yesterday, which Union led comfortably most of the way) and Ithaca was playing a true road game, not a neutral site game. I'd have them roughly the same here too, although if I had to put one of them ahead, it would be Fisher, because Union spent the whole game shooting themselves in the foot.

But in their only loss, IC hangs with the 2nd-best E8 team on the road for most of the game, whereas Fisher gets killed at home by what looks like the best team in the LL. Hobart may prove to be good, and in fact better than Salisbury, but with five minutes to go, Ithaca is down 14-7 and Fisher is down 56-14. Style points matter to me, so amazingly, I have found something that underrates the Bombers.

Hobart is big, physical and athletic on both sides of the ball.  I don't believe Fisher really expected Hobart to be that good.  I don't care what league they are in, Hobart is a very good football team.

Bombers: I considered it for a minute or two, but I can't do that quite yet. Ithaca's had one solid offensive showing in three games, and I need proof that what happened in Schenectady wasn't a one-time performance before I put them higher than fifth. A solid win at Hartwick, in a road environment they've struggled in in the past, would be a big help.

Fair point. I love IC against Team Boltus next week though. (Sorry Yanks). The Wick offense looks average at best, terrible at worst. Ten turnovers in three weeks is not good when you're facing an Ithaca team that has forced 11 in three games.

I think Ithaca will really benefit from the week off to get Hendel further entrenched as the starter and IC, despite their offensive issues, have the best offense the Wick has seen all year. 34-14 Bombers.

No worries Bombers...Ithaca is definitely the favorite this week. 

I am trying to focus on some positives here.  While the passing game has been down to start the year, it definitely didn't help against Mount Ida when the starting QB went down early in the 2nd quarter.  The back-up QB (just a sophomore) who was playing for the first time ever in his career...played exactly how most young QB's play in their very first outing.  Some good (220 plus yards in less than 3 quarters) and some bad (12/29 bad...3 picks, very bad).

Ithaca may be the best offense that Wick has seen this year to date, but that's not saying too much (from an overall league perspective).  I don't think I am out of line to think that they probably have anywhere from the 4th to the 6th best offense in the league (Alfred, Salisbury, Springfield are better...Utica and Fisher might be better). 

Because the game is on the hill, I think Wick might have a shot.  We will find out a lot about the defense this Saturday, but for the first time in a long time there is some hope regarding the defense.  Morrisville, Norwich, and Mount Ida won't scare any good teams...but giving up 11, 14, and 7 points makes it promising to see as a Wick fan.  Can the offense put anything together against what is regarded as one of the better defenses in the E8 in Ithaca (if not the best defense), time will tell.

Like I said...Ithaca is no doubt favored this week.  Do I think Wick can win?  If this was at Butterfield, I would say probably not.  Because it's at the cage...I think we have a shot.

[Bombers798891]

No worries Bombers...Ithaca is definitely the favorite this week. 

I am trying to focus on some positives here.  While the passing game has been down to start the year, it definitely didn't help against Mount Ida when the starting QB went down early in the 2nd quarter.  The back-up QB (just a sophomore) who was playing for the first time ever in his career...played exactly how most young QB's play in their very first outing.  Some good (220 plus yards in less than 3 quarters) and some bad (12/29 bad...3 picks, very bad).

Ithaca may be the best offense that Wick has seen this year to date, but that's not saying too much (from an overall league perspective).  I don't think I am out of line to think that they probably have anywhere from the 4th to the 6th best offense in the league (Alfred, Salisbury, Springfield are better...Utica and Fisher might be better). 

Because the game is on the hill, I think Wick might have a shot.  We will find out a lot about the defense this Saturday, but for the first time in a long time there is some hope regarding the defense.  Morrisville, Norwich, and Mount Ida won't scare any good teams...but giving up 11, 14, and 7 points makes it promising to see as a Wick fan.  Can the offense put anything together against what is regarded as one of the better defenses in the E8 in Ithaca (if not the best defense), time will tell.

Like I said...Ithaca is no doubt favored this week.  Do I think Wick can win?  If this was at Butterfield, I would say probably not.  Because it's at the cage...I think we have a shot.

I think you're accurate in your placement of the IC offense with regard to where they stand in the E8--and may be too generous. I might put them 6 or 7th. They rank dead last in the conference in total yards by a significant amount. I guess it depends if we want to assume Hendel will be better going forward than Neumann was--which frankly, isn't a stretch

However, like the Union game, I think IC's point total will be higher than the offensive numbers wind up suggesting. A turnover prone offense and a turnover-causing defense may lead to short fields, but the big thing may be Hartwick's QB's and their accuracy. Completing 43% of your passes makes it hard to sustain drives. I think the Wick's defense has really helped in this regard as Hartwick hasn't been forced to throw as much because they've never trailed by a considerable amount.

One thing that intrigues me about the Wick is that the passing game, while sub-par, is big play. Check out this stat:

Yards per completion in E8 (Salisbury and Springfield excluded)

Hartwick: 18.6
Frostburg: 14.0
Alfred 12.8
Utica: 11.9
Ithaca: 10.2
Fisher: 8.6

So the Wick can make some big plays. The turnovers will be the big thing

[AUPepBand]

Pep is relieved to have the Springfield game behind us. The Pride is very good. Just a hard-hitting team that never gave up on Saturday. Saxon defense seemed to get a little better with each series at containing that triple option, forcing the Pride to go to the air more than they'd like.

With Carter at QB, Pep thinks the Pride actually throws a bit more than one would imagine...Carter was 5-of-11 for 98 yards. Secky was 12-of-18 for 120 yards and 1 TD.

Here's an interesting stat: AU ran the ball 51 times and gained 232 yards, with Dwyer getting 137 on 26 carries. Springfield ran the ball 55 times and gained....232 yards, with Carter leading the Pride with 79 yards on 16 carries. Pride had 205 yards in first half, 27 in second.

It will be interesting to see how the rest of the E8 contends with the Pride.

On Saxon Warriors!


On Saxon Warriors!

[bomber3]

Updated E8 rankings.


4) SJF: Ouch. OUCH. From dominating the Courage Bowl to getting dominated by Hobart. It doesn't get easier with Alfred coming to town, and the question I have to ask is, which Fisher team will we get?
5) Ithaca: No change to the #5 spot in the bye week, although an IC win and a Fisher loss may see the Bombers move up the list. Up next for the Bombers: Hartwick, in a tough road environment (the Cage).

I'm flipping these two right now. Now, before people think I've lost my mind, or am betraying my own internal logic, hear me out. This is not me saying IC will beat Fisher in two weeks. Or that IC will finish the season ahead of Fisher in the E8. It is simply a statement of where I think the teams are now.

Both schools are 2-1. They each opened their season with close, unimpressive home wins, so I'd put them about even at that point. But Ithaca's other two games have put them ahead. Yes, Fisher beat Rochester 52-3 while IC only beat Union 37-18, but Union is better than Rochester (as evidenced by the game yesterday, which Union led comfortably most of the way) and Ithaca was playing a true road game, not a neutral site game. I'd have them roughly the same here too, although if I had to put one of them ahead, it would be Fisher, because Union spent the whole game shooting themselves in the foot.

But in their only loss, IC hangs with the 2nd-best E8 team on the road for most of the game, whereas Fisher gets killed at home by what looks like the best team in the LL. Hobart may prove to be good, and in fact better than Salisbury, but with five minutes to go, Ithaca is down 14-7 and Fisher is down 56-14. Style points matter to me, so amazingly, I have found something that underrates the Bombers.

I agree.  No way IC's defense gives up 56 points to anyone outside of the top 10 in the nation.  Both IC and Fisher have their issues, but right now Ithaca's body of work has been more impressive.  Fisher is in the middle of a very difficult part of their schedule and despite being 0-0 in the conference, could be 2-2 and staring a trip to Ithaca in the face.  IC had a bye this week and Hartwick next so they should be fresh and ready to go in two weeks barring any collapse in Oneonta.  Fisher will have played their rivalry game, lost by 36 to Hobart, and then face the defending conference champion and #16 ranked Saxons before coming to South Hill.  That is an emotional roller coaster this early in the season.

I love when people make statements that in no way can be substantiated...because you just know you could hold Wesley to under 56, or North Central or just have a bad day against a team like Springfield or Hobart.  I think Ithaca's defense is better than Fisher's but then I think Fisher's defense is average.  But don't go around making assertions that can't be backed up.

I love when people are critical of comments made on an opinion-based, discussion board.  I didn't realize this was an academic journal that required references for all sources either in an appendix or footnote.  I can go around making any assertion I like, but thanks for the feedback. 

The fact is Ithaca has given up 53 points in three games.  I'll say it again and I don't really care if it can be proven, in my eyes no one outside the premier teams in the nation could put up those numbers on them.

[AUPepBand]

Updated E8 rankings.


4) SJF: Ouch. OUCH. From dominating the Courage Bowl to getting dominated by Hobart. It doesn't get easier with Alfred coming to town, and the question I have to ask is, which Fisher team will we get?
5) Ithaca: No change to the #5 spot in the bye week, although an IC win and a Fisher loss may see the Bombers move up the list. Up next for the Bombers: Hartwick, in a tough road environment (the Cage).

I'm flipping these two right now. Now, before people think I've lost my mind, or am betraying my own internal logic, hear me out. This is not me saying IC will beat Fisher in two weeks. Or that IC will finish the season ahead of Fisher in the E8. It is simply a statement of where I think the teams are now.

Both schools are 2-1. They each opened their season with close, unimpressive home wins, so I'd put them about even at that point. But Ithaca's other two games have put them ahead. Yes, Fisher beat Rochester 52-3 while IC only beat Union 37-18, but Union is better than Rochester (as evidenced by the game yesterday, which Union led comfortably most of the way) and Ithaca was playing a true road game, not a neutral site game. I'd have them roughly the same here too, although if I had to put one of them ahead, it would be Fisher, because Union spent the whole game shooting themselves in the foot.

But in their only loss, IC hangs with the 2nd-best E8 team on the road for most of the game, whereas Fisher gets killed at home by what looks like the best team in the LL. Hobart may prove to be good, and in fact better than Salisbury, but with five minutes to go, Ithaca is down 14-7 and Fisher is down 56-14. Style points matter to me, so amazingly, I have found something that underrates the Bombers.

I agree.  No way IC's defense gives up 56 points to anyone outside of the top 10 in the nation.  Both IC and Fisher have their issues, but right now Ithaca's body of work has been more impressive.  Fisher is in the middle of a very difficult part of their schedule and despite being 0-0 in the conference, could be 2-2 and staring a trip to Ithaca in the face.  IC had a bye this week and Hartwick next so they should be fresh and ready to go in two weeks barring any collapse in Oneonta.  Fisher will have played their rivalry game, lost by 36 to Hobart, and then face the defending conference champion and #16 ranked Saxons before coming to South Hill.  That is an emotional roller coaster this early in the season.

I love when people make statements that in no way can be substantiated...because you just know you could hold Wesley to under 56, or North Central or just have a bad day against a team like Springfield or Hobart.  I think Ithaca's defense is better than Fisher's but then I think Fisher's defense is average.  But don't go around making assertions that can't be backed up.

I love when people are critical of comments made on an opinion-based, discussion board.  I didn't realize this was an academic journal that required references for all sources either in an appendix or footnote.  I can go around making any assertion I like, but thanks for the feedback. 

The fact is Ithaca has given up 53 points in three games.  I'll say it again and I don't really care if it can be proven, in my eyes no one outside the premier teams in the nation could put up those numbers on them.

Well hey, when was the last time Ithaca gave up 56 points to anyone?

1980--Dayton 63, Ithaca 0
1971--CW Post 62, Ithaca 0
1970--West Chester 56, Ithaca 0

Pep thinks that's somewhat substantiated evidence.

[Bombers798891]

Well hey, when was the last time Ithaca gave up 56 points to anyone?

1980--Dayton 63, Ithaca 0
1971--CW Post 62, Ithaca 0
1970--West Chester 56, Ithaca 0

Pep thinks that's somewhat substantiated evidence.

Eh...I guess if we want to be hyper-literal. I mean, they gave up 55 to Union (2005) and Springfield (2000). What's the real difference between 55 and 56? A missed extra point

But Bomber3's point, as I read it, was simply that, at this point, when you're comparing Fisher and Ithaca right now, that those 56 points at home stands out. Look, at the end of the day, we're debating the 4th and 5th spots in the conference. Neither team is looking like world-beaters, and as it stands, both could easily be 1-2 and both could miss the playoffs easily. We're not trying to rub in the results of the game.

[AUPepBand]

Pep....definitely a big-time hyper-literal poster if you ever saw one!     Literally.

[dlippiel]

C'mon fellas every statement needs footnotes, let's get with the ****ing game...

[SJFF82]

Caveat....I dont believe Fisher is going 'bowling' this year, as I think I have made clear in my limited posts this year.....


....but, This is not the 1st time SJF defense has been absolutely manhandled at home in the past few years.  They got homogenized by Chris Sharpe on the way to a run the the final 4 in 2006 and then got manhandled again by SC I think in 2009 during an otherwise solid season.  I think Salisbury put a number on them in the past couple years as well.   While I agree they are probably 7-3 at best this year, I am not ready to declare them unable to contend with AU for the E8 just because of 1 game result, well not at least until Sat when AU steam rolls them....

I dont find any reason to be comparing SJF to IC, until at least they play a common opponent, or eachother.  SJF has proven on the field what they can do to IC, even during the seasons I mentioned above when they have given up 50+ points at home in a game.

[fisheralum91]

I agree with 82.

I wasnt going to say much after the Fisher disaster, but reading that IC would never give up 50+ at home was just crap.
Look, Fisher is going to have a tough year- and by that I agree with 82 and say 7-3 maybe 6-4, but IC is no pick of the litter here either.

[Bombers798891]

I agree with 82.

I wasnt going to say much after the Fisher disaster, but reading that IC would never give up 50+ at home was just crap.
Look, Fisher is going to have a tough year- and by that I agree with 82 and say 7-3 maybe 6-4, but IC is no pick of the litter here either.

Seriously, who's saying they are? You guys are getting rather defensive over some people saying Ithaca might be slightly ahead of Fisher right now for fourth place in the conference. I mean, I'm the biggest pessimist on these boards when it comes to his own team, and will in no way think IC will beat Fisher in two weeks, but come on. It's not an entirely crazy theory that the Bombers and Cardinals are roughly even, and that who you put ahead may come down to some personal preference. Some of you are acting like we're placing IC on a throne and Fisher in the dungeon.

Maybe you didn't agree with the specific way Bomber3 drove home his point, fine. But lighten up. We've rightfully admitted countless times over the years that Fisher has owned Ithaca over the past five seasons. Heck, even in 2008, when IC was the top true East seed for the NCAA's, we gave you credit for taking us behind the woodshed and beating us down. It's not like we're thumping our chests over this current team. Bomber3 admitted they have flaws, and I've done more then that.

Bomber3's point about IC not giving up 50+ at home to teams outside the top 10 might not be "true" in the literal sense of the word if you want to look at specific point totals, but he's simply saying that he doesn't think this Bomber team would have that kind of performance against teams of Hobart's caliber at home. What's wrong with that statement? It can't be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt? Lots of things we say on this board can't be "proven." And again, it's not an entirely off-the-wall notion that IC doesn't give up 56 points at home this season to any opponent, two of which (Alfred and Cortland) look to be Top 10-15 caliber.

Wouldn't your reaction to someone last week predicting "I think Hobart is going to shred Fisher and the Cardinals will allow 56 points and nearly 500 yards" have been similar to Bomber3's? Consider how your defense looked the first two weeks and the state of the LL to that point. You wouldn't have said something like "I think that's nuts. Fisher's not going to do that"? That's what I would have said, and I'm not even a Fisher fan.

But maybe IC will do that. Alfred and Cortland are coming into town this season after all. Heck, maybe it happens in two weeks when you guys come to Butterfield. Better IC teams than this one have been lit into by you guys. Maybe Welch will sell his soul to the devil, and IC will go 9-1 and host some NCAA games and we can test Bomber3's hypothesis that way.

[SJFF82]

I have no issue whatsoever with anyone's opinion that IC is a step ahead of SJF.  I dont believe my post even implies I did.  I was simply curious as to why 'we' are comparing IC-SJF at this early stage, especially when, as you correctly point out, they are BOTH sucking AU, Salisbury, and prob. SC's exhaust right now.  I mentioned Fisher's abundance  of success against IC as a way to illustrate that even when Fisher has been wrung out at home in the recent past, it has been no indication of their season's overall success or how they fair against IC in that particular season.

I am cautiously optimistic about the upcoming AU game though....

[Bombers798891]

I have no issue whatsoever with anyone's opinion that IC is a step ahead of SJF.  I dont believe my post even implies I did.  I was simply curious as to why 'we' are comparing IC-SJF at this early stage...,

Why not? There's a poll on this site, there are preseason polls done by coaches. All of these polls make their rankings even though all the teams in those polls have not played each other. Why is Kean 10th and Montclair 12th? Why did Salisbury get picked ahead of Alfred? Obviously, the people involved compared the two teams and came to a decision. That's all any of us are doing. If you don't like the polls themselves, okay. But if the polls are going to exist seems like comparing the two schools is the only way to do it, even if the information we use is incomplete. So this is just another one.