FB: Empire 8

[sjfcards]

Honestly, neither team seems to have confidence in its offense to make plays right now, perhaps with good reason. The defenses are the only reason either team is over .500

You are not kidding about that. Look at the points scored in Fisher's wins. Taking away the U of R game which looks like the exception, rather than the rule. In the other 3 wins, Fisher has scored 12, 17, and 13 points. A win is a win, but seriously, if Utica or some other lower level team puts up 20 or 30, can Fisher beat them?

[Bombers798891]

Honestly, neither team seems to have confidence in its offense to make plays right now, perhaps with good reason. The defenses are the only reason either team is over .500

You are not kidding about that. Look at the points scored in Fisher's wins. Taking away the U of R game which looks like the exception, rather than the rule. In the other 3 wins, Fisher has scored 12, 17, and 13 points. A win is a win, but seriously, if Utica or some other lower level team puts up 20 or 30, can Fisher beat them?

Maybe, but only because those teams' defenses are likely to be bad.

[SJFF82]

It would seem to me that Bart would be ranked ahead of AU at this point based upon its blow to SJF and SJF'S subsequent blow to AU, and AU's subsequent almost blown tire at Hartwick, yet, AU was significantly ahead of 'Bart in the rankings to start and Bart's blow to SJF suddenly isnt looking like as much of a blow due to SJF's blow to AU not looking as good anymore after AU almost blowing a tire at 'Wick and SJF surviving a turnover and blown opportunity fest at South Hill, so I guess what i am trying to say is that I am trying to justify in my mind the respective rankings but it is tough to reach an end conclusion that makes sense when you keep going in circles.

This is the very reason why you cannot just assume a team is 'better' after one H2H matchup or after a team loses to a team you beat.  It only takes 3-4 weeks into the season and that attempt at logically ranking teams necessarily becomes an exercise in academic futility.

Sure it seems unfair that AU is ranked ahead of 'Bart after 'Bart blasted SJF who handled AU, who almost lost to Wick, but fairness i dont think is a criteria when voting. 

In my opinion, based on what I have seen on the field and read from all, I would rank the 3 like this:  AU, Bart, SJF.  AU had a deep run last year, and has many of the same weapons so maybe they have a few kinks to work out, but it aint like they are 1-3 right now.  Bart started from a nowhere ranking this year, plays in a sub-performing conference overall right now, did whack what appears to be a decent SJF squad at Fisher, but SJF certainly has its flaws and tends to give up one huge number on defense almost every year.  Bart's other wins are nothing to write to Pat Coleman about.  SJF, is just plain suspect right now.  Yes they beat AU, , but see above where AU may be struggling a bit for now.  They are averaging **** on the scoreboard right now (save the UR debacle) and they did all they could to lose to IC, whose on nobody's ranking radar right now.  And of course they got petrified by Hobart at home on homecoming.

For me the bottom line is, if these 3 played eachother 2 times each in a home and home round robin, I got AU at 3-1 (1-1 v SJF; 2-0 v Bart); Bart at 2-2 (0-2 v AU; 2-0 v SJF); SJF 1-3 (1-1 v. AU; 0-2 v Bart).  I think the SJF-AU outcomes have to do with rivalry, and the SJF-Bart outcomes are based upon the actual thrashing Bart placed on SJF at SJF.)

....just my 82 cents.

[SJFF82]

btw....does SJF need to think about turning over the play calling duties to a former QB, turned QB coach named Rob Kramer?   

[sjfcards]

but fairness i dont think is a criteria when voting. 

Just ask the BCS...

[Upstate]

btw....does SJF need to think about turning over the play calling duties to a former QB, turned QB coach named Rob Kramer?

Something needs to be done, this offense is maddening to watch.

I know they're short handed this year, pun intended, at QB but you can't honestly run a spread offense with a RB playing QB.

[sjfcards]

btw....does SJF need to think about turning over the play calling duties to a former QB, turned QB coach named Rob Kramer?

Something needs to be done, this offense is maddening to watch.

I know they're short handed this year, pun intended, at QB but you can't honestly run a spread offense with a RB playing QB.

Agreed. Especially when you can't run the ball or throw the ball down field. It would be fine to use screen passes in place of a running game, if they could throw the ball down field to keep defenses honest. As it is, they just pack the box, and load up against the same few plays over and over. I don't know why Fisher doesn't run more of an option type offense if Kramer is it at QB. They don't need to be Springfield or Salisbury, but option out of the shotgun, and throw enough to keep defenses guessing.

I am wondering if Dave Parks as the play caller was benefiting from Rob Kramer and Tim Bailey the last several years, which was why those Fisher offenses had so much success?

[dewcrew88]

My E8 Rankings this week

1. Salisbury-- An impressive win over Springfield makes them the top team

2. Fisher-- They didn't look great against IC, and the offense, like many in the conference, doesn't seem good enough to make a lot of noise nationally. But the defense continues to play very well, and they're, in my view, the clear number two thanks to the H2H win, as well as a road win.

3. Alfred-- The Saxons just don't look sharp. It's one thing for the offensively challenged Bombers to struggle at the Cage, but a team with the Saxons' offensive talent settling for FG's in the red zone and turning the ball over on three straight possessions? That's just surprising. It's also unlikely to work next weekend against a better team.

(Please note: There is really nothing distinguishing the next batch of teams from one another, in my mind. I will provide my rationale, but honestly, I expect, and welcome disagreements)

4. Ithaca-- This is less of an endorsement of Ithaca as it is a depressing commentary on the overall mediocrity of the E8. Bombers could be 4-1. They could also be 1-4. They're going to be in every game because they play great defense, but won't win many because they can't score.

5. Springfield-- Why are they behind Ithaca? The Bombers played Salisbury tough, falling 21-7. Springfield hung for a half, but you can't get outscored 37-0 in the second half and get the benefit of a toss-up. 65 points and 560 yards allowed? Brutal. Right now, that's all we have to compare the teams, so I'm okay with this order. There is no reason to think that Springfield can't beat the Bombers though

6. Frostburg-- Putting the Bobcats here even though I think they're a dangerous team that could also beat Ithaca. I know their losses were to good teams, but I can't put them ahead of Springfield because of the head to head loss, and I've shared why I think the Pride need to be behind the Bombers.

7. Utica-- The LL is, with the exception of Hobart, middling again. But wins over SLU, Union and RPI trump Morrisville State and Norwich. But the Pioneers now have to try and break through in conference, something they struggle with yearly.

8. Hartwick-- I was tempted to bumping up the Hawks for showing fight these last two weeks, but Utica's still got a better body of work than the Hawks

Re: UC. It's unfortunate you have them 7th, but until they can get their **** together in-conference, that's where they belong. I think they beat Hartwick this week, and they could beat Ithaca on the 22nd, if they play a good game with zero mistakes.

[Yanks 99]

My E8 Rankings this week

1. Salisbury-- An impressive win over Springfield makes them the top team

2. Fisher-- They didn't look great against IC, and the offense, like many in the conference, doesn't seem good enough to make a lot of noise nationally. But the defense continues to play very well, and they're, in my view, the clear number two thanks to the H2H win, as well as a road win.

3. Alfred-- The Saxons just don't look sharp. It's one thing for the offensively challenged Bombers to struggle at the Cage, but a team with the Saxons' offensive talent settling for FG's in the red zone and turning the ball over on three straight possessions? That's just surprising. It's also unlikely to work next weekend against a better team.

(Please note: There is really nothing distinguishing the next batch of teams from one another, in my mind. I will provide my rationale, but honestly, I expect, and welcome disagreements)

4. Ithaca-- This is less of an endorsement of Ithaca as it is a depressing commentary on the overall mediocrity of the E8. Bombers could be 4-1. They could also be 1-4. They're going to be in every game because they play great defense, but won't win many because they can't score.

5. Springfield-- Why are they behind Ithaca? The Bombers played Salisbury tough, falling 21-7. Springfield hung for a half, but you can't get outscored 37-0 in the second half and get the benefit of a toss-up. 65 points and 560 yards allowed? Brutal. Right now, that's all we have to compare the teams, so I'm okay with this order. There is no reason to think that Springfield can't beat the Bombers though

6. Frostburg-- Putting the Bobcats here even though I think they're a dangerous team that could also beat Ithaca. I know their losses were to good teams, but I can't put them ahead of Springfield because of the head to head loss, and I've shared why I think the Pride need to be behind the Bombers.

7. Utica-- The LL is, with the exception of Hobart, middling again. But wins over SLU, Union and RPI trump Morrisville State and Norwich. But the Pioneers now have to try and break through in conference, something they struggle with yearly.

8. Hartwick-- I was tempted to bumping up the Hawks for showing fight these last two weeks, but Utica's still got a better body of work than the Hawks

Re: UC. It's unfortunate you have them 7th, but until they can get their **** together in-conference, that's where they belong. I think they beat Hartwick this week, and they could beat Ithaca on the 22nd, if they play a good game with zero mistakes.

I think they are fortunate not to be ranked 8th.  They have had some "good" non-league wins this year compared to the previous few years (when they beat up on Castleton State and Becker), but at the end of the day Union (2-4), St. Lawrence (2-3), and RPI (2-3) are still all sub .500 teams.  This year, to my surprise, UC's defense is really, really having a tough time.  Utica seems pretty balanced offensively and have put up some big points against everyone they have faced (whether in conference or out of conference).  However, giving up 44 points (to Frostburg State) and 70 points (to Salisbury) in conference is terrible...

[Bombers798891]

My E8 Rankings this week

1. Salisbury-- An impressive win over Springfield makes them the top team

2. Fisher-- They didn't look great against IC, and the offense, like many in the conference, doesn't seem good enough to make a lot of noise nationally. But the defense continues to play very well, and they're, in my view, the clear number two thanks to the H2H win, as well as a road win.

3. Alfred-- The Saxons just don't look sharp. It's one thing for the offensively challenged Bombers to struggle at the Cage, but a team with the Saxons' offensive talent settling for FG's in the red zone and turning the ball over on three straight possessions? That's just surprising. It's also unlikely to work next weekend against a better team.

(Please note: There is really nothing distinguishing the next batch of teams from one another, in my mind. I will provide my rationale, but honestly, I expect, and welcome disagreements)

4. Ithaca-- This is less of an endorsement of Ithaca as it is a depressing commentary on the overall mediocrity of the E8. Bombers could be 4-1. They could also be 1-4. They're going to be in every game because they play great defense, but won't win many because they can't score.

5. Springfield-- Why are they behind Ithaca? The Bombers played Salisbury tough, falling 21-7. Springfield hung for a half, but you can't get outscored 37-0 in the second half and get the benefit of a toss-up. 65 points and 560 yards allowed? Brutal. Right now, that's all we have to compare the teams, so I'm okay with this order. There is no reason to think that Springfield can't beat the Bombers though

6. Frostburg-- Putting the Bobcats here even though I think they're a dangerous team that could also beat Ithaca. I know their losses were to good teams, but I can't put them ahead of Springfield because of the head to head loss, and I've shared why I think the Pride need to be behind the Bombers.

7. Utica-- The LL is, with the exception of Hobart, middling again. But wins over SLU, Union and RPI trump Morrisville State and Norwich. But the Pioneers now have to try and break through in conference, something they struggle with yearly.

8. Hartwick-- I was tempted to bumping up the Hawks for showing fight these last two weeks, but Utica's still got a better body of work than the Hawks

Re: UC. It's unfortunate you have them 7th, but until they can get their **** together in-conference, that's where they belong. I think they beat Hartwick this week, and they could beat Ithaca on the 22nd, if they play a good game with zero mistakes.

Yeah, I mean, in my view, there's no-one to put them over. Frostburg beat them and Springfield and IC have a better body of work right now. Frankly though, we're not that much better than the LL. The records don't reflect it necessarily, but all the teams seem to have major issues except for maybe Salisbury. Right now, the Gulls and (sometimes) the Saxons are the only two complete teams. The Wick, IC, SJF all have offensive issues. Frostburg, Utica, and now even Springfield seem to have defensive problems. Alfred's got a struggling Tom Secky with seven turnovers and one passing TD in the last two weeks. If Secky can rebound, and Fisher's D keeps it up, you might have a solid top three. But if Secky keeps struggling and Fisher's offense can't get moving, I could see both of them picking up multiple losses down the road.

[SJFF82]

btw....does SJF need to think about turning over the play calling duties to a former QB, turned QB coach named Rob Kramer?

Something needs to be done, this offense is maddening to watch.

I know they're short handed this year, pun intended, at QB but you can't honestly run a spread offense with a RB playing QB.

Agreed. Especially when you can't run the ball or throw the ball down field. It would be fine to use screen passes in place of a running game, if they could throw the ball down field to keep defenses honest. As it is, they just pack the box, and load up against the same few plays over and over. I don't know why Fisher doesn't run more of an option type offense if Kramer is it at QB. They don't need to be Springfield or Salisbury, but option out of the shotgun, and throw enough to keep defenses guessing.

I am wondering if Dave Parks as the play caller was benefiting from Rob Kramer and Tim Bailey the last several years, which was why those Fisher offenses had so much success?

just had that converstaion yesterday with a certain someone close to the program....

[Bombers798891]

btw....does SJF need to think about turning over the play calling duties to a former QB, turned QB coach named Rob Kramer?

Something needs to be done, this offense is maddening to watch.

I know they're short handed this year, pun intended, at QB but you can't honestly run a spread offense with a RB playing QB.

Agreed. Especially when you can't run the ball or throw the ball down field. It would be fine to use screen passes in place of a running game, if they could throw the ball down field to keep defenses honest. As it is, they just pack the box, and load up against the same few plays over and over. I don't know why Fisher doesn't run more of an option type offense if Kramer is it at QB. They don't need to be Springfield or Salisbury, but option out of the shotgun, and throw enough to keep defenses guessing.

I am wondering if Dave Parks as the play caller was benefiting from Rob Kramer and Tim Bailey the last several years, which was why those Fisher offenses had so much success?

just had that converstaion yesterday with a certain someone close to the program....

Yeah but isn't that sort of how it works? Let me use IC as an example:

As much as I disliked IC's playcalling Saturday, a wise man pointed this out to me: They have no tight end, which kills them in the red zone. They don't have a burner that can stretch the field, and they don't have speed at the RB position. Throw in a mistake-prone QB and rebuilding the offensive line, and well, what can you do? You can only call players based on what you have.

For Fisher, they have the wideouts, but don't have a QB that can go downfield, and don't have a lot of speed in the backfield (Both teams' QB's were their squad's best RB's). So to some extent, you're working with a limited playbook. When you've got the best player to come into this region in who knows how long (Robinson) and a steady stream of great QBs, you can do a lot of things differently. Now, lacking those players, the same run that got you six yards gets you three, so you can't run the play-action you used to on 2nd-and-4 because who's biting? Guys can creep up because the QB isn't putting one 45 yards downfield because he can't, so suddenly, that WR screen pass you run has more DB's close by, and the LB's aren't playing so close to the line to help in the run. It's sort of cascading.

[SJFF82]

someone emailed me today that SJF's 6 game win streak is a record for consecutive losses to one opponent for IC....i was actually wondering about that and was going ask the IC posters what was their longest such streak.  Can this be confirmed and if so, that is a streak to be proud of for the Fisher 'franchise'.  IC has, of course, a very storied and proud history, and just a short 15-20 years ago, the Cardinals were the East's doormat.  I, as a former player, and now fan, am proud to say that the Cards have risen to such a level.  IC was always such an unattainable benchmark for our program when I played, and on many levels, they still are due to their multiple championships, but to run a streak like this is a long way towards getting there.....as soon as MUC/UWW join 1AA of course....

[Upstate]

just had that converstaion yesterday with a certain someone close to the program....

Like my new name says, it's time for a change...

Their offense is stale, unimaginative and unproductive...

[Bombers798891]

someone emailed me today that SJF's 6 game win streak is a record for consecutive losses to one opponent for IC....i was actually wondering about that and was going ask the IC posters what was their longest such streak.  Can this be confirmed and if so, that is a streak to be proud of for the Fisher 'franchise'.  IC has, of course, a very storied and proud history, and just a short 15-20 years ago, the Cardinals were the East's doormat.  I, as a former player, and now fan, am proud to say that the Cards have risen to such a level.  IC was always such an unattainable benchmark for our program when I played, and on many levels, they still are due to their multiple championships, but to run a streak like this is a long way towards getting there.....as soon as MUC/UWW join 1AA of course....

Sounds about right. IC lost five straight to Buffalo State from 1995-1999, but nothing else I can remember. Obviously, Fisher players and fans should view that with pride. Any team winning six straight against a quality program is a good thing. No, Ithaca's not at the level they once were, but Fisher's program has clearly surpassed the Bombers. Jason Hendel said in the Ithaca Journal that the way the Bombers played showed that they can "hang with the big boys." (I'm going to leave aside the irony of the QB of the worst IC offense the last 30 years saying that, and pretend the quote comes from someone who plays defense.)

I think the question for the Fisher program is, can they return to the level they were at in 2006/2007? That's the tough thing