FB: Empire 8

[clandfan]

Congrats to Coach Vos- East Region Coach of the Year!

I will second that. I think this is Coach Vos's best job at SJF. I really did not expect much this year, and was happy to see the development and adjustments that got this team as far as it went.

I was surprised Dan Pitcher was not selected as the East Region offensive POY, but I have to admit I know nothing about the player selected. I just figured with Pitcher being a Gagliardi trophy finalist it was in the bag.

True, but his 4.08 GPA isn't a factor for one of those awards.

True, and he doesn't need it.  Pitcher has better statistics, better team, better record, better confererence.   Great season for Gallo.  POY...not buyin it. 

[Frank Rossi]

Congrats to Coach Vos- East Region Coach of the Year!

I will second that. I think this is Coach Vos's best job at SJF. I really did not expect much this year, and was happy to see the development and adjustments that got this team as far as it went.

I was surprised Dan Pitcher was not selected as the East Region offensive POY, but I have to admit I know nothing about the player selected. I just figured with Pitcher being a Gagliardi trophy finalist it was in the bag.

True, but his 4.08 GPA isn't a factor for one of those awards.

True, and he doesn't need it.  Pitcher has better statistics, better team, better record, better confererence.   Great season for Gallo.  POY...not buyin it.

Well, go to the LLPP for an explanation.  Pitcher wasn't unanimously the best QB in the East.  So, tell Mike Hermann why Pitcher deserved it more.

[middlerelief]

Here's a question (and go easy on me if you've already covered this!)

How does the E8 - and to a larger extent, NY STate/The East close the gap?

The E8 is a great conference in that it is competitive. The last 7 seasons it has sent 6 different teams to the NCAAs. Most of the time it seems the teams do well in getting past the first 2 rounds, but our out of region record not so well.

Salisbury for example, while an E8 team, is really a South team and cut through the league like nobody's business, still got beat by UWW handily. MUC has beaten up SJF, IC, Alfred, Cortland, Hobart, Montclaire et al. and St. Thomas as you all know beat SJF like few teams have.

So, is it players, coaching,, play calling - what is it in your opinion that has such a big gap it seems between us (E8 schools) and say the top 4 to 5 programs that we see in D3's top 25 every year??

[Jonny Utah]

Here's a question (and go easy on me if you've already covered this!)

How does the E8 - and to a larger extent, NY STate/The East close the gap?

The E8 is a great conference in that it is competitive. The last 7 seasons it has sent 6 different teams to the NCAAs. Most of the time it seems the teams do well in getting past the first 2 rounds, but our out of region record not so well.

Salisbury for example, while an E8 team, is really a South team and cut through the league like nobody's business, still got beat by UWW handily. MUC has beaten up SJF, IC, Alfred, Cortland, Hobart, Montclaire et al. and St. Thomas as you all know beat SJF like few teams have.

So, is it players, coaching,, play calling - what is it in your opinion that has such a big gap it seems between us (E8 schools) and say the top 4 to 5 programs that we see in D3's top 25 every year??

It might sound like I'm trying to be a wiseass, but I think you need all these great highschool football players to go to Ithaca College instead of schools like Alfred, SJF, Cortland, Utica, Union, Hobart, Hartwick, RPI and St. Lawrence.

But pick any of those schools and make the same arguement.  There is simply too much parity in the east, and especially upstate football right now.

[Bombers798891]

Here's a question (and go easy on me if you've already covered this!)

How does the E8 - and to a larger extent, NY STate/The East close the gap?

The E8 is a great conference in that it is competitive. The last 7 seasons it has sent 6 different teams to the NCAAs. Most of the time it seems the teams do well in getting past the first 2 rounds, but our out of region record not so well.

Salisbury for example, while an E8 team, is really a South team and cut through the league like nobody's business, still got beat by UWW handily. MUC has beaten up SJF, IC, Alfred, Cortland, Hobart, Montclaire et al. and St. Thomas as you all know beat SJF like few teams have.

So, is it players, coaching,, play calling - what is it in your opinion that has such a big gap it seems between us (E8 schools) and say the top 4 to 5 programs that we see in D3's top 25 every year??

It might sound like I'm trying to be a wiseass, but I think you need all these great highschool football players to go to Ithaca College instead of schools like Alfred, SJF, Cortland, Utica, Union, Hobart, Hartwick, RPI and St. Lawrence.

But pick any of those schools and make the same arguement.  There is simply too much parity in the east, and especially upstate football right now.

A man much smarter than me said that the issue in the East is you have all these teams that have really made it a priority to be good, and there just aren't enough players to go around. In a sense, it's good that all these schools are taking football seriously, but the large number of schools and shifting population trends make it tough.

Additionally, I think it's good for the region when traditional powers like Ithaca and Union are good. No disrespect meant to others, but that's the way it is. I don't think those two schools going a combined 17-22 over the last two years is good for the region. Given the two schools' new willingness to play one another, I think we'd all like to see them return to better times.

Finally, I think it's a matter of good East Region teams not ****ing the bed. Ithaca in 2007, 2008 and 2004 come to mind, Fisher in 2007 is another one. This Cortland team would have been very, very interesting in the playoffs as well. But, they tend to lose a game or two inexplicably and weaker teams may sneak in in their stead. They can also hurt their seeding. For example, in 2007, Fisher was light years ahead of everyone else in conference, but lost on a #1 seed by losing to the Wick. So then Mount moves East and well...the next year, IC lost to a 4 loss Fisher team and got the 2 seed in the region, then lost to Curry...

We can usually identify the "best" team in the region, and as much as upsets are great fodder, it often results in the best East teams not getting a chance to prove themselves against other regions' top teams. I mean, in 2008, Cortland hung with MUC for a half, and Ithaca had waxed them a few weeks earlier. Had the Bombers been a #1 seed and played to their potential, they could have thrown a scare into a good team (maybe not Mount, although the 2007 team did okay there)

[middlerelief]

good points

you look at what UWW was before their run, you look at UST what they were prior to '09 - sub .500 teams that all of a sudden arrived - was it just money that built nice facilities that attracted better recruits?

To the comment on the East being better when IC and Union are good - perhaps, they both made it to the Stagg Bowl multiple times so I can see your point from a brand standpoint. SJF has invested in its program and I think maybe has surpassed IC's program the last 6 seasons - is IC or a team in the East willing to spend the $$ to attract enough great recruits - leading to weaker other teams in the East, but a dominate power?

[Jonny Utah]

good points

you look at what UWW was before their run, you look at UST what they were prior to '09 - sub .500 teams that all of a sudden arrived - was it just money that built nice facilities that attracted better recruits?

To the comment on the East being better when IC and Union are good - perhaps, they both made it to the Stagg Bowl multiple times so I can see your point from a brand standpoint. SJF has invested in its program and I think maybe has surpassed IC's program the last 6 seasons - is IC or a team in the East willing to spend the $$ to attract enough great recruits - leading to weaker other teams in the East, but a dominate power?

It shouldn't have anything to do with money when it comes to Ithaca football.  Ithaca can recruit kids from places that Cortland and SJF can't.  They need to sell the school and program to these kids while still selling the same thing to upstate kids that can go to both schools.

UWW is in a different category.  They have a 1-aa setup there and the fans to support that setup.  Even Mount Union doesn't have the huge stadium UWW has.

In the end it comes down to coaching and recruiting after the coaching.  That is true for every level.

[Upstate]

Bombers I think you should add the 2010 Cardinals, they were just killing people for 7 weeks and then crapped the bed twice in the final 3 weeks including a mind numbing loss to Springfield to close out the regular season.  I really think that was the 2nd best team they have ever fielded, their lowest offensive point total on the year was 31 points.  If they don't blow the Springfield game they could have made some noise as a Pool C team at 9-1... 

[Bombers798891]

Bombers I think you should add the 2010 Cardinals, they were just killing people for 7 weeks and then crapped the bed twice in the final 3 weeks including a mind numbing loss to Springfield to close out the regular season.  I really think that was the 2nd best team they have ever fielded, their lowest offensive point total on the year was 31 points.  If they don't blow the Springfield game they could have made some noise as a Pool C team at 9-1...

That's another good one.

[euleria]

BTW...The Tommies are for real....I really thought we got MUCinized on saterday.

That is the first time since 2002 SJF got pistol whipped by a team that was undisputedly better than SJF (other than MUC of course)

I like that.

MUCinization  (accent on the first syallable) --   turning something into mucin.

+1! 

Shouldn't it be UMUinization?  UMUnched-up?  UMULched?  Hmmm.

[maxpower]

BTW...The Tommies are for real....I really thought we got MUCinized on saterday.

That is the first time since 2002 SJF got pistol whipped by a team that was undisputedly better than SJF (other than MUC of course)

I like that.

MUCinization  (accent on the first syallable) --   turning something into mucin.

+1! 

Shouldn't it be UMUinization?  UMUnched-up?  UMULched?  Hmmm.

UMUiliated?

[SU Backer]

Here's a question (and go easy on me if you've already covered this!)

How does the E8 - and to a larger extent, NY STate/The East close the gap?

The E8 is a great conference in that it is competitive. The last 7 seasons it has sent 6 different teams to the NCAAs. Most of the time it seems the teams do well in getting past the first 2 rounds, but our out of region record not so well.

Salisbury for example, while an E8 team, is really a South team and cut through the league like nobody's business, still got beat by UWW handily. MUC has beaten up SJF, IC, Alfred, Cortland, Hobart, Montclaire et al. and St. Thomas as you all know beat SJF like few teams have.

So, is it players, coaching,, play calling - what is it in your opinion that has such a big gap it seems between us (E8 schools) and say the top 4 to 5 programs that we see in D3's top 25 every year??

hi middle...it isn't that it is just the "east" that hasn't closed the gap......nobody in the east, west, north or south has really been able to challenge MU and UWW over almost the entire last decade...SJF and SU were beaten by better teams, but it isn't like they are light years away either, keep the faith!

[Doid23]

It might sound like I'm trying to be a wiseass, but I think you need all these great highschool football players to go to Ithaca College instead of schools like Alfred, SJF, Cortland, Utica, Union, Hobart, Hartwick, RPI and St. Lawrence.

But pick any of those schools and make the same arguement.  There is simply too much parity in the east, and especially upstate football right now.

Don't forget about 1-AA and the Ivies (and DII to a lesser extent). There's just a lot of options for sub 1A football players in the East, and now that many schools have dedicated resources and focus to creating winning programs, parity would seem to be the ultimate outcome.

I remember playing Augustana back in the day, and the comment of one of the folks there was that it was Iowa, Iowa State, Illinois or Augustana. I don't know if it's true or not, but makes some sense.

[repete]

Well, I guess "almost" qualifies the post a little bit and I wouldn't even enter this conversation had not a couple of folks on this board called St. Thomas' schedule "not that good."  So look as this in the context of a poster standing up for a region/conference, not bringing another down.

I believe the gap is closing, but until there's a breakthrough it's still there. In the context of this season, neither East team challenged their West opponent in the elite 8.  And it isn't just UMU amd UWW. St. Thomas dominated. SJF got three first downs in its first series and none (and negative yards) the rest of the half, it had no answer for Waldvogel, who was pulled at halftime, and its offense never found the endzone.

While folks on this board dissed the MIAC schedule (hard to fathom when you look at the MIAC's non-conference record this year and overall playoff record over the long term), two telling stats -- first downs and total offense -- were surpassed by all but two of UST's MIAC foes. Despite those numbers, I'm NOT saying that SJF belongs with the MIAC bottomfeeders, but it was no Bethel.  Not close. St. Olaf, perhaps a physical matchup with Concordia or maybe even the late-season improved version of SJU would have been good games IMO.

Take away the "almost" and two West teams other than UWW have won titles in the past 10 years. And over a longer perspective, five West teams have won eight titles since the last one by the East. To me, that's a gap. While there have not been many head-to-head games between East and West, look at what's happened to Rowan, RPI and SJF in postseason games with PLU, Linfield, SJU and UST.

Also contributing to the difference between East and West is that the East has no conference as strong top-to-bottom as the WIAC. Oskkosh, for example,  left itself no room for error  by scheduling a NC game with Mount Union. It took UWW down to the wire, but lost a conference game to a solid, but non-contending LaCrosse.  That did in any playoff hopes, but they deserve props for courageous scheduling. (SJF likewise deserves praise for '09, but there was no team comparable to UWW on the rest of its slate.)

Wesley, despite its early loss to Kean, has been a study in closing that gap ... and part of the reason has been the tough times it had earlier with UWW and the fabulous battles it regularly has with South rival UMHB. I posted before Linfield that this could be a breakthrough year for them and I hope it continues. (Also, I hope for safe travels for all the Delaware folks and others with this weather.)

Bottom line: I'm hoping the NCAA continues to do even more bracketing like this season because it exposures more teams to a wider variety of competition and in the long run may help close any gaps (real or in my imagination.) It will also give these debates a lot more data.
 

[Jonny Utah]

Well, I guess "almost" qualifies the post a little bit and I wouldn't even enter this conversation had not a couple of folks on this board called St. Thomas' schedule "not that good."  So look as this in the context of a poster standing up for a region/conference, not bringing another down.

I believe the gap is closing, but until there's a breakthrough it's still there. In the context of this season, neither East team challenged their West opponent in the elite 8.  And it isn't just UMU amd UWW. St. Thomas dominated. SJF got three first downs in its first series and none (and negative yards) the rest of the half, it had no answer for Waldvogel, who was pulled at halftime, and its offense never found the endzone.

While folks on this board dissed the MIAC schedule (hard to fathom when you look at the MIAC's non-conference record this year and overall playoff record over the long term), two telling stats -- first downs and total offense -- were surpassed by all but two of UST's MIAC foes. Despite those numbers, I'm NOT saying that SJF belongs with the MIAC bottomfeeders, but it was no Bethel.  Not close. St. Olaf, perhaps a physical matchup with Concordia or maybe even the late-season improved version of SJU would have been good games IMO.

Take away the "almost" and two West teams other than UWW have won titles in the past 10 years. And over a longer perspective, five West teams have won eight titles since the last one by the East. To me, that's a gap. While there have not been many head-to-head games between East and West, look at what's happened to Rowan, RPI and SJF in postseason games with PLU, Linfield, SJU and UST.

Also contributing to the difference between East and West is that the East has no conference as strong top-to-bottom as the WIAC. Oskkosh, for example,  left itself no room for error  by scheduling a NC game with Mount Union. It took UWW down to the wire, but lost a conference game to a solid, but non-contending LaCrosse.  That did in any playoff hopes, but they deserve props for courageous scheduling. (SJF likewise deserves praise for '09, but there was no team comparable to UWW on the rest of its slate.)

Wesley, despite its early loss to Kean, has been a study in closing that gap ... and part of the reason has been the tough times it had earlier with UWW and the fabulous battles it regularly has with South rival UMHB. I posted before Linfield that this could be a breakthrough year for them and I hope it continues. (Also, I hope for safe travels for all the Delaware folks and others with this weather.)

Bottom line: I'm hoping the NCAA continues to do even more bracketing like this season because it exposures more teams to a wider variety of competition and in the long run may help close any gaps (real or in my imagination.) It will also give these debates a lot more data.

Well maybe their schedule isn't that good.  They did play SJF last week after all.