FB: Empire 8

[02 Warhawk]

I think to have success at the level of MUC and UWW you really need a perfect mix of everything we are talking about.

Ding, Ding, Ding......We have a winner.

I'll be the first to admit it though. The common denominator is $$$$ which leads to good facilities, which leads to good recruiting. A perfect example is what St. Thomas has accomplished over the past few seasons. That's why St. John's fans call them U$T. As big as a factor as donations and funding is, you still need a perfect mix of everything you talked about prior - like sjfcards said.

As mentioned earlier, the biggest thing UWW has going for them is the lack of college football in the state of Wisconsin. Tuition has little to do with it. MANY of Whitewater's players were offered up tuition assistance/grants (whatever you want to call it) from private DIII schools and DII schools to play for them. Our two best players (RB Coppage and QB Blanchard), as well as other UWW greats, are from IL. What they pay for out-of-state tuition rivals most private schools after they offer up its "assistance".

On a side note, I don't blame you guys. If I didn't graduate from UWW, I would be sick of these Stagg Bowls as well. I see where you're coming from.

St. Thomas also has a new coach though, and that might have a lot to do with how well they are doing.

And although I've never been to UWW, it seems like it has more of a 1-aa feel in terms of facilities, school size, and crowds at games.  I've been to Mount Union and I have to say that it seems just like any other d3 football school I played against or have been to (Union, Ithaca, SJF, Alfred, St. Lawrence, Hobart, Springfield).

And administrative support is huge, but you still need to be able to recruit players who can fit into your program.  Most d3 schools in the northeast will give you the $$ if you really need it.

Very true, however UWW built its big stadium and had a large school enrollment LONG before their championship runs. So it's hard to pin-point that as a reason why they became so good. Many of its current facilities (apart from the stadium) is only three to four years old. Which definitely helped continue its winning tradition, but it wasn't the source.

Coaching, recruiting, donations and its geographic location are my four big factors on why UWW is what it is.

It'll come to an end for UWW eventually..don't worry. Just like it did for Augustana, just like it did for UW-La Crosse, just like it did for Rowan. Even St. John's seem to be on the decline now. The only one who seems to be immune from the law of averages is Mount 

[Luv D3]

Kind of off the topic, but did any one watch the Montana vs N. Iowa game on friday. What a crowd, 25g strong. But you could have fooled me, it seemed a  lot larger. What a great environment to be at. The fans were going bonkers!

[Knightstalker]

Reading the last few pages I think SJF is on the path to continued success as they seem to have the proper mix of good facilities, good coaching and administrative support.  They are where Wesley was a few years ago, doing well early on in the region but running into buzzsaws in later rounds, it made Wesley stronger and I believe SJF will get stronger.

[Upstate]

Reading the last few pages I think SJF is on the path to continued success as they seem to have the proper mix of good facilities, good coaching and administrative support.  They are where Wesley was a few years ago, doing well early on in the region but running into buzzsaws in later rounds, it made Wesley stronger and I believe SJF will get stronger.

I hope they are but if they are to do so they need to grab more of the top talent in their area, when the AGR (all greater Rochester) teams come out and the Top Lions All Star game rosters (Buffalo area) come out I'm not seeing that many of the top kids go to Fisher.  They need to do a better job in their own area recruiting if they want to get where Wesley is now let alone where MUC/UWW are....

[Doid23]

DOID?  Sheesh, I rarely get credit and Frank ya give it to DOID?

Why all of the hate my friend? It's Christmas, enjoy the season.

[skunks_sidekick]

Key to constant and steady domination........


PURPLE!!!!

[HScoach]

Good catch by whoever that said "supportive administration".   That's step 1 to get/keep the coach.


And being purple doesn't hurt either.......

[fisheralum91]

Pat,
I agree that there are certain things that can be done- from the Board of Trustees on down.
It takes the Board and the College President to agree to make someting a priority.
First and foremost every person in Higher Ed will tell you that academics are the focus and number one priority.
Utilizing resources to promote Athletics must come from above, and not infringe with the Mission of the college and work to enhance the overall college experience.
I have no idea what Mount Union or UWW have in their respective budgets for the football programs, but obviously there is a priority level that some other institutions of higher learning dont have.
Im not saying that other Colleges dont spend as much or try as hard, it is just painfully obvious that there are different levels of prioritization.

Doid..no offense.hence the quote.happy holidays

[wesleydad]

great discussion.  I can only speak about Wesley.  Some call it lowering the academic standards, I call it giving a kid a chance that others won't.  I guess that would be a joint sports/admissions decision.  Someone mentioned that the staff had to pick the right kids that will stick it out and do the job in the classroom and I think that Wesley does that very well, my son would be one of those kids.  Horrible standardized test taker so his SAT scores were not "good enough" to get in some schools.  Coach Drass wanted him to come to Wesley because he thought he could play and deserved a chance to get an education and play.  I thank Coach Drass for the opportunity he gave my son and several other kids like him.

[Mr. Ypsi]

great discussion.  I can only speak about Wesley.  Some call it lowering the academic standards, I call it giving a kid a chance that others won't.  I guess that would be a joint sports/admissions decision.  Someone mentioned that the staff had to pick the right kids that will stick it out and do the job in the classroom and I think that Wesley does that very well, my son would be one of those kids.  Horrible standardized test taker so his SAT scores were not "good enough" to get in some schools.  Coach Drass wanted him to come to Wesley because he thought he could play and deserved a chance to get an education and play.  I thank Coach Drass for the opportunity he gave my son and several other kids like him.

+k.  And congratulations to your son and Coach Drass.

I taught at U of Michigan (the REAL Wolverines ) and (most of my career) at Eastern Michigan U.  There need to be standards, and letting coaches have too much influence on admissions can be abused.  BUT, while I sometimes taught athletes that were dumber than a bucket of rocks (some of whom had been legitimate qualifiers), I also taught athletes who were 'special qualifiers' who through sheer grit did VERY well.  (I will never forget one football player who 'should not have been admitted', who graduated from EMU summa cum laude )  Standardized tests are overrated; human judgement on qualifications should not be underestimated.

[FWIW, I was a notoriously hard grader, sometimes advised against by the athletic department at EMU.  To the best of my recollection, no female soccer player EVER got below an A in my classes. ]

[sjfcards]

great discussion.  I can only speak about Wesley.  Some call it lowering the academic standards, I call it giving a kid a chance that others won't.  I guess that would be a joint sports/admissions decision.  Someone mentioned that the staff had to pick the right kids that will stick it out and do the job in the classroom and I think that Wesley does that very well, my son would be one of those kids.  Horrible standardized test taker so his SAT scores were not "good enough" to get in some schools.  Coach Drass wanted him to come to Wesley because he thought he could play and deserved a chance to get an education and play.  I thank Coach Drass for the opportunity he gave my son and several other kids like him.

I can understand the thought that schools are giving a kid a shot when others won't, but I can't buy into the idea that it is for the good of the recruit. I believe all coaches care about the players they recruit and coach, but they get these kids into school because they can play. I don't see many top schools giving an average student that is not an athlete a chance.

Sports do speak to a more well rounded individual and that does play a roll in admissions, but sometimes the numbers just don't add up, and the kid is in school to run the ball. I don't have a problem with that per se, but think that it is a very slippery slope.

[Jonny Utah]

great discussion.  I can only speak about Wesley.  Some call it lowering the academic standards, I call it giving a kid a chance that others won't.  I guess that would be a joint sports/admissions decision.  Someone mentioned that the staff had to pick the right kids that will stick it out and do the job in the classroom and I think that Wesley does that very well, my son would be one of those kids.  Horrible standardized test taker so his SAT scores were not "good enough" to get in some schools.  Coach Drass wanted him to come to Wesley because he thought he could play and deserved a chance to get an education and play.  I thank Coach Drass for the opportunity he gave my son and several other kids like him.

I can understand the thought that schools are giving a kid a shot when others won't, but I can't buy into the idea that it is for the good of the recruit. I believe all coaches care about the players they recruit and coach, but they get these kids into school because they can play. I don't see many top schools giving an average student that is not an athlete a chance.

Sports do speak to a more well rounded individual and that does play a roll in admissions, but sometimes the numbers just don't add up, and the kid is in school to run the ball. I don't have a problem with that per se, but think that it is a very slippery slope.

Well said and I was thinking the same thing.  At some point you have to realize that there is some kid who did not get into Wesley because he wasn't a good football player.  Now that kid might not get the chance to go to college at all.

Then again, we all know that football players often end up as leaders and champions off the field regardless of academics.

[sjfcards]

Then again, we all know that football players often end up as leaders and champions off the field regardless of academics.

Agreed, and as an athlete (especially a football player) you bring more to the campus experience than a "normal" student. Someone said it earlier, and I agree, that you should try to be good at sports if your school is going to field a team. Otherwise what is the point. Sports can have as big an impact as anything on alumni donations and excitement around campus, so the normal students that do get into the school can/do benefit from having those exceptions accepted.

I guess what I am trying to say is that lowering standards/taking a chance on a kid is generally a good thing in my oppinion. Especially when kids take advantage of their situation (which I think most do).

I don't know if most people would agree with me or not, but the flip side to that coin is that there is a very fine line between bending admissions rules for the betterment of the entire student body, and negatively impacting the school to win football games.

[fisheralum91]

From personal experience,
Student athletes as well as Students involved with clubs, RA's, student paper/radio etc,
do better than the average student.  I know that I had to prioritize my tasks, manage time, and still be able to get to practice and games.
It made you focus like a laser beam and I was a better student for it.
I think that is why you see Colleges like Fisher adding sports programs!

[pg04]

From personal experience,
Student athletes as well as Students involved with clubs, RA's, student paper/radio etc,
do better than the average student.  I know that I had to prioritize my tasks, manage time, and still be able to get to practice and games.
It made you focus like a laser beam and I was a better student for it.
I think that is why you see Colleges like Fisher adding sports programs!

I agree with this completely!  Being Heavily involved with the Brockport Radio as well as some other things meant I had to prioritize things effectively and use time wisely.