FB: Empire 8

[BomberJeff]

This week's D3 Poll update- Ithaca reenters the top 25 at number 23, one spot ahead of Saint John Fisher who falls from 15 to 24.

Hobart slips a spot from 7 to 8 due to their close game with St. Lawrence.

[Boxer7806]

Question is, (assuming SJF gets a win vs. Alfred which is not a give obv) does SJF get an at-large bid with two losses this year, like they did in prior two trips --

I believe the answer is no.  Here's my spec as to that is the case:

6 At Large Bids (right?)
1 will go to Widener/Del Valley Loser (East)
1 will go to JCW/Mt. Union Loser (North)
1 will go to Bethel (West)
1 will go to Muhlenberg or Thomas More (South)
Leaving 2 spots for Wabash (North), North Central (North), Tex Lutheran (South), OshKosh/Platteville (West), Maybe Linfield/Pacific (West), St. Thomas (North), SJF 2 losses to unranked teams (East)

Might be too many teams vying for too many spots.  This year, I think they're left out.

Middle, I don't see any chance that they get a bid.  The question is do they even get on the board from the east.  After the Del Val - Widener loser gets chosen as they surely will there is a good chance that Framingham State is the next team up for the east.  They may not get off the board.  Their 1 loss is to 3 loss Rowan, who by some miracle looks like they might win the NJAC.  You have to hope that they get the second pool B bid and are not in the way.  Morrisville may jump into the discussion with their win against Montclaire.  If will be interesting to see how far Fisher drops in the RR.  The east looks really bad right now for a second pool C bid.  Everyone has 2 loses and compared to the other 2 loss teams around the nation, they do not look very good.

Agreed, Framingham was at #5 last week right behind Fisher so they will automatically bump up to #4 at the very least. They also play Worcester St who at 7-2 will boost their SOS even a little bit more with a win. It will be interesting to see the rankings come out on Wednesday and see who the #10 ranked team will be and if it has any effect on teams earning a RRO win.

[ECoastFootball]

Question is, (assuming SJF gets a win vs. Alfred which is not a give obv) does SJF get an at-large bid with two losses this year, like they did in prior two trips --

I believe the answer is no.  Here's my spec as to that is the case:

6 At Large Bids (right?)
1 will go to Widener/Del Valley Loser (East)
1 will go to JCW/Mt. Union Loser (North)
1 will go to Bethel (West)
1 will go to Muhlenberg or Thomas More (South)
Leaving 2 spots for Wabash (North), North Central (North), Tex Lutheran (South), OshKosh/Platteville (West), Maybe Linfield/Pacific (West), St. Thomas (North), SJF 2 losses to unranked teams (East)

Might be too many teams vying for too many spots.  This year, I think they're left out.

With the situation looking as it does, does that mean no shot for a 9-1 Framingham State team?

[ExTartanPlayer]

Question is, (assuming SJF gets a win vs. Alfred which is not a give obv) does SJF get an at-large bid with two losses this year, like they did in prior two trips --

I believe the answer is no.  Here's my spec as to that is the case:

6 At Large Bids (right?)
1 will go to Widener/Del Valley Loser (East)
1 will go to JCW/Mt. Union Loser (North)
1 will go to Bethel (West)
1 will go to Muhlenberg or Thomas More (South)
Leaving 2 spots for Wabash (North), North Central (North), Tex Lutheran (South), OshKosh/Platteville (West), Maybe Linfield/Pacific (West), St. Thomas (North), SJF 2 losses to unranked teams (East)

Might be too many teams vying for too many spots.  This year, I think they're left out.

With the situation looking as it does, does that mean no shot for a 9-1 Framingham State team?

I think he might have just forgotten about Framingham (since they're in Pool B) or just left them out.

I don't think Framingham gets in through Pool B (I just can't see the committee NOT selecting undefeated Centre as a Pool B choice), but I think they will have a very realistic shot in Pool C because their high RR (unless they are dropped in the RRs over the next few weeks) probably means they'll be the second East team on the board after the Del Val-Widener loser (and maybe, for all we know, they'll be leapfrogged ahead of them in the rankings).

[Bombers798891]

Here's something I've started to wonder about Fisher under Vosburgh. Given how he's built the program up from the bottom, is it possible that the culture of the program is rooted in being the underdog, and they simply don't know how to go about life when they're the favorite?

Yeah, they had two seasons where overwhelming talent pretty much made it impossible for them to screw it up (2006, 2007) but last year's team feels like the guideline for their program. They lose a couple of games and you're not sure how they lost, sleepwalk through a couple games, then in a defacto playoff game, throw up a 41-point 2nd quarter. Following this, they go to the playoffs and beat two top 10 teams on the road, one whose only previous loss was to Mount Union and the other who was undefeated.

The movie Chasing Amy pretty much sums up how I view Fisher right now: "You're [St. John Fisher College], the most persistent traveler on the road that's *not* the path of least resistance. Everything's gotta be a challenge for you"

Look, maybe I'm not giving the teams who beat them enough credit. I'm not saying Fisher just sort of decides when they want to win. But I just get the feeling that Fisher is much more comfortable lurking in the shadows than in the limelight

[jknezek]

I find it interesting that SJF consistently loses to the team that wins the E8ish. Some of the below is ancient history, but only twice in the E8ish history has SJF beat the E8ish champion. Now you think that isn't a big deal, the champion probably beat everyone, right? But no. Even the four years SJF split the E8ish title they LOST the head to head to the other champion three of four times. Plus, the E8ish champion has only gone undefeated 5 times, so someone beats the champions more than half the time, but it's typically not SJF.

What does this mean? I don't know. But I won't be surprised going forward when SJF loses to the top tier teams in the E8ish even with Salisbury leaving. It seems like that is their pattern even when we think they should win.

2014 Ithaca
2013 Ithaca
2012 Salisbury
2011 Salisbury  ** undefeated **
2010 Alfred  ** undefeated **
2009 split with Alfred
2008 ** beat Ithaca **
2007 split with Hartwick
2006 split with Springfield
2005 Ithaca  ** undefeated **
2004 split with and ** beat Ithaca
2003 Ithaca ** undefeated **
2002 Ithaca ** undefeated **

Stats courtesy of D3sports.com and empire8.com

[Bombers798891]

I find it interesting that SJF consistently loses to the team that wins the E8ish. Some of the below is ancient history, but only twice in the E8ish history has SJF beat the E8ish champion. Now you think that isn't a big deal, the champion probably beat everyone, right? But no. Even the four years SJF split the E8ish title they LOST the head to head to the other champion three of four times. Plus, the E8ish champion has only gone undefeated 5 times, so someone beats the champions more than half the time, but it's typically not SJF.

What does this mean? I don't know. But I won't be surprised going forward when SJF loses to the top tier teams in the E8ish even with Salisbury leaving. It seems like that is their pattern even when we think they should win.

2014 Ithaca
2013 Ithaca
2012 Salisbury
2011 Salisbury  ** undefeated **
2010 Alfred  ** undefeated **
2009 split with Alfred
2008 ** beat Ithaca **
2007 split with Hartwick
2006 split with Springfield
2005 Ithaca  ** undefeated **
2004 split with and ** beat Ithaca
2003 Ithaca ** undefeated **
2002 Ithaca ** undefeated **

Stats courtesy of D3sports.com and empire8.com

I was interested to see if your theory and my theory about Fisher being better when the underdog were connected, so I took a look at the teams' rankings heading into those games, as well as the other conference games Fisher lost in the regular season—I excluded '03 and '02 since these were not auto-bid years

2004: Unranked SJF beats #11 Ithaca. Later, #14 Fisher loses to unranked Norwich
2005: #15 Ithaca beats #17 Fisher
2006: #14 Fisher loses to #17 Springfield at home. In playoffs, #16 Fisher tops #15 Springfield on road
2007: #5 St. John Fisher loses to unranked Hartwick
2008: #11 Fisher beats #16 Ithaca. Later loses to unranked Hartwick
2009: Unranked but receiving 21 votes Fisher loses to unranked but receiving 37 votes Alfred
2010: #19 Fisher loses to Unranked Alfred
2011: Unranked Fisher loses to #11 Salisbury
2012: #9 Fisher loses to #7 Salisbury, #12 Fisher loses to Unranked Alfred, #25 Fisher loses to unranked Buffalo State
2013: #19 Fisher loses to unranked Salisbury, #25 Fisher loses to unranked Ithaca
2014: #7 Fisher loses to unranked Salisbury, #15 Fisher loses to unranked Ithaca

So, in the 11 years where the E8 has had the autobid, Fisher's lost a conference game to a lower-ranked opponent six years, and beaten a higher ranked opponent two years. This pretty much confirms my theory that Fisher's better at chasing people down than holding people off, but it also explains your theory as to why Fisher loses so much to eventual champs. Usually, Fisher is very good when they lose those H2H games, so the teams who beat them are, naturally good enough to beat enough of the rest of the conference to win the autobid.

(Also, seriously, Fisher's lost six times in three years to unranked conference opponents? I'm just going to say it: Parity and triple-option woes aside, is it possible the Cardinals have simply been overrated these past three years—and I include myself in that overrating group?)

[boobyhasgameyo]

Say whatever you wish about them being over or underrated.  I'll say one thing that I believe - I believe Fisher being in the playoffs helps out the entire east region.  We have exposed teams before they are submitted to beatings by other regions and giving even more ammo to the notion the east is weak. 

Last year it was Hobart and John Carroll (but those same east bashers will conveniently overlook that).  In 2011 it was Johns Hopkins (also an out of region team and also overlooked) and Delaware Valley.  All of those teams (with the exception of JC's narrow loss to Mount Union) were undefeated that season before facing Fisher.  If Fisher weren't there and they played some random Fram State type team, then advanced to play St. Thomas or Mary Hardin Baylor?  They would have been obliterated, and it would have been their only loss.  So people would say the east is so weak. 

And before you Hobart posters lose your mind, your 2011 team probably would have faired better against St. Thomas than Fisher did, but I'm not talking about your 2011 team.  We exposed an overrated Del Val that season. 

Good luck if a team like Framingham State makes it in.  You watch what will happen when the undefeated MAC champ or Hobart plays one of the big boys this year.  A team like Fisher won't be there to clear out some of the ill prepared and posters across the nation will have their ridiculous notions reaffirmed in their minds. 

[sjfcards]

Say whatever you wish about them being over or underrated.  I'll say one thing that I believe - I believe Fisher being in the playoffs helps out the entire east region.  We have exposed teams before they are submitted to beatings by other regions and giving even more ammo to the notion the east is weak. 

Last year it was Hobart and John Carroll (but those same east bashers will conveniently overlook that).  In 2011 it was Johns Hopkins (also an out of region team and also overlooked) and Delaware Valley.  All of those teams (with the exception of JC's narrow loss to Mount Union) were undefeated that season before facing Fisher.  If Fisher weren't there and they played some random Fram State type team, then advanced to play St. Thomas or Mary Hardin Baylor?  They would have been obliterated, and it would have been their only loss.  So people would say the east is so weak. 

And before you Hobart posters lose your mind, your 2011 team probably would have faired better against St. Thomas than Fisher did, but I'm not talking about your 2011 team.  We exposed an overrated Del Val that season. 

Good luck if a team like Framingham State makes it in.  You watch what will happen when the undefeated MAC champ or Hobart plays one of the big boys this year.  A team like Fisher won't be there to clear out some of the ill prepared and posters across the nation will have their ridiculous notions reaffirmed in their minds.

I agree with this, and would just add, that this is the problem with using regional rankings so heavily when dealing with selections. I want to be clear that this is not me pushing for a Fisher bid to the tourny because I don't think they deserve one with their body of work this year. But, would anyone expect Fisher to lose to Hobart, Del Val, or Framingham State if Fisher did slip in with two losses? I would guess that Buff State could do damage against that slate, and they will probably finish 3rd in the league. Using the regional rankings rewards teams like Hobart and Framingham for going undefeated in weaker conferences, and contributes to the East is a weak region discussion. Teams that beat up on weaker teams all year are ranked higher simply because they do not lose. I do believe that Fisher, IC, or Buff State could play in the NJAC or LL and would end up with 1 or no losses. If they replaced Framnigham State in that conference I think undefeated would be very possible.

If the top E8 teams were spread out, I would argue the East Regions overall playoff performances would be far better. Case in point is the last two times Fisher did slip in the playoffs with 2 losses and then did some damage. No one would have argued if Fisher was held out of the playoffs those years, but they have been some of the better runs by East Region teams in the past few years.

[PBR...]

Say whatever you wish about them being over or underrated.  I'll say one thing that I believe - I believe Fisher being in the playoffs helps out the entire east region.  We have exposed teams before they are submitted to beatings by other regions and giving even more ammo to the notion the east is weak. 

Last year it was Hobart and John Carroll (but those same east bashers will conveniently overlook that).  In 2011 it was Johns Hopkins (also an out of region team and also overlooked) and Delaware Valley.  All of those teams (with the exception of JC's narrow loss to Mount Union) were undefeated that season before facing Fisher.  If Fisher weren't there and they played some random Fram State type team, then advanced to play St. Thomas or Mary Hardin Baylor?  They would have been obliterated, and it would have been their only loss.  So people would say the east is so weak. 

And before you Hobart posters lose your mind, your 2011 team probably would have faired better against St. Thomas than Fisher did, but I'm not talking about your 2011 team.  We exposed an overrated Del Val that season. 

Good luck if a team like Framingham State makes it in.  You watch what will happen when the undefeated MAC champ or Hobart plays one of the big boys this year.  A team like Fisher won't be there to clear out some of the ill prepared and posters across the nation will have their ridiculous notions reaffirmed in their minds.

True... every year there are over/underrated teams in the playoffs... Just like in 2004 when DVC exposed a overrated SJF team...that is why they play games and we all like D3 not D1 bogus playoff structure.

[jmcozenlaw]

Say whatever you wish about them being over or underrated.  I'll say one thing that I believe - I believe Fisher being in the playoffs helps out the entire east region.  We have exposed teams before they are submitted to beatings by other regions and giving even more ammo to the notion the east is weak. 

Last year it was Hobart and John Carroll (but those same east bashers will conveniently overlook that).  In 2011 it was Johns Hopkins (also an out of region team and also overlooked) and Delaware Valley.  All of those teams (with the exception of JC's narrow loss to Mount Union) were undefeated that season before facing Fisher.  If Fisher weren't there and they played some random Fram State type team, then advanced to play St. Thomas or Mary Hardin Baylor?  They would have been obliterated, and it would have been their only loss.  So people would say the east is so weak. 

And before you Hobart posters lose your mind, your 2011 team probably would have faired better against St. Thomas than Fisher did, but I'm not talking about your 2011 team.  We exposed an overrated Del Val that season. 

Good luck if a team like Framingham State makes it in.  You watch what will happen when the undefeated MAC champ or Hobart plays one of the big boys this year.  A team like Fisher won't be there to clear out some of the ill prepared and posters across the nation will have their ridiculous notions reaffirmed in their minds.

True... every year there are over/underrated teams in the playoffs... Just like in 2004 when DVC exposed a overrated SJF team...that is why they play games and we all like D3 not D1 bogus playoff structure.

PBR - Where have you been on the comatose MAC board? I've got Widener winning by 2+ touchdowns and getting a #3 seed and still holding out hope that DVC gets a #4 seed at 9-1 given SOS and ROR. Thoughts?

[Bombers798891]

Say whatever you wish about them being over or underrated.  I'll say one thing that I believe - I believe Fisher being in the playoffs helps out the entire east region.  We have exposed teams before they are submitted to beatings by other regions and giving even more ammo to the notion the east is weak. 

Last year it was Hobart and John Carroll (but those same east bashers will conveniently overlook that).  In 2011 it was Johns Hopkins (also an out of region team and also overlooked) and Delaware Valley.  All of those teams (with the exception of JC's narrow loss to Mount Union) were undefeated that season before facing Fisher.  If Fisher weren't there and they played some random Fram State type team, then advanced to play St. Thomas or Mary Hardin Baylor?  They would have been obliterated, and it would have been their only loss.  So people would say the east is so weak. 

And before you Hobart posters lose your mind, your 2011 team probably would have faired better against St. Thomas than Fisher did, but I'm not talking about your 2011 team.  We exposed an overrated Del Val that season. 

Good luck if a team like Framingham State makes it in.  You watch what will happen when the undefeated MAC champ or Hobart plays one of the big boys this year.  A team like Fisher won't be there to clear out some of the ill prepared and posters across the nation will have their ridiculous notions reaffirmed in their minds.

You make some good points re Fisher's performance in the playoffs, but

1. The perception of the East is going to largely be unchanged until we put out a legitimate national title contender, which we'll only prove if we upset one of the big boys. Fisher can certainly boost our profile to some degree by beating a JCU, but they haven't done any really heavy lifting. (Nor has anyone else in the East, so I'm not picking on Fisher)

On balance, Fisher's a positive, because they're doing things no other East team has. Still, a 10-0 Cardinals regular season probably helps more than a two-loss Fisher pulling off a couple of upsets in the playoffs.

2. What good is a team that's super dangerous in the playoffs if they're shooting themselves in the foot, constantly on the bubble, resulting in them missing the playoffs despite some really good teams (2010 and most likely this year) Heck, think about last year's benevolent exposers of the overrated. They were so firmly outside the bubble, after the Ithaca game one of you guys was asking about not starting Fenti against Alfred "to get a jump on next season"

Fisher reminds me of a crazy ex-girlfriend. Sure, sometimes she sneaks in your window at 3 a.m. for some amazing sex. But she'll also probably start a whole bunch of unneeded drama, and break a date at least once a week. Last year, we got the 3 a.m. version. This year, we're probably just getting the migraine.

[boobyhasgameyo]

Say whatever you wish about them being over or underrated.  I'll say one thing that I believe - I believe Fisher being in the playoffs helps out the entire east region.  We have exposed teams before they are submitted to beatings by other regions and giving even more ammo to the notion the east is weak. 

Last year it was Hobart and John Carroll (but those same east bashers will conveniently overlook that).  In 2011 it was Johns Hopkins (also an out of region team and also overlooked) and Delaware Valley.  All of those teams (with the exception of JC's narrow loss to Mount Union) were undefeated that season before facing Fisher.  If Fisher weren't there and they played some random Fram State type team, then advanced to play St. Thomas or Mary Hardin Baylor?  They would have been obliterated, and it would have been their only loss.  So people would say the east is so weak. 

And before you Hobart posters lose your mind, your 2011 team probably would have faired better against St. Thomas than Fisher did, but I'm not talking about your 2011 team.  We exposed an overrated Del Val that season. 

Good luck if a team like Framingham State makes it in.  You watch what will happen when the undefeated MAC champ or Hobart plays one of the big boys this year.  A team like Fisher won't be there to clear out some of the ill prepared and posters across the nation will have their ridiculous notions reaffirmed in their minds.

True... every year there are over/underrated teams in the playoffs... Just like in 2004 when DVC exposed a overrated SJF team...that is why they play games and we all like D3 not D1 bogus playoff structure.

Ha, don't get defensive because Delaware Valley was not a great team in 2011 PBR.  They played in a lesser conference and went undefeated.  The 2004 Fisher team was not undefeated, so that isn't apples to apples.  As a matter of fact, we were the underdog, which is why we went to play at Delaware Valley for that game.  But congrats for the Aggies winning that game in the closing seconds.  Rowan actually played the role that year that I am talking about Fisher having played recently.  They destroyed Del Val that next game, although they lost very handily to Linfield the following week. 

It's a matter of east teams clearing out the over inflated teams that get their wins against lesser competition before the other regions do.  I can understand how that might make people upset to hear, but if the E8 teams were spread out across other conferences then there wouldn't be as many undefeated East teams.  That way, when they inevitably do lose to the big guns, it wouldn't have been something that nobody from the east was able to do, yet another region accomplished so easily. 

Just watch.  If Hobart or whatever MAC champ comes out and gives one of those powers a good game then I will happppppily say I was wrong.  But if those same two teams enter into one of those games, still undefeated and only beating east teams, then they get slaughtered at the alter...you wait and see the reaction that will come of it. 

[jmcozenlaw]

Say whatever you wish about them being over or underrated.  I'll say one thing that I believe - I believe Fisher being in the playoffs helps out the entire east region.  We have exposed teams before they are submitted to beatings by other regions and giving even more ammo to the notion the east is weak. 

Last year it was Hobart and John Carroll (but those same east bashers will conveniently overlook that).  In 2011 it was Johns Hopkins (also an out of region team and also overlooked) and Delaware Valley.  All of those teams (with the exception of JC's narrow loss to Mount Union) were undefeated that season before facing Fisher.  If Fisher weren't there and they played some random Fram State type team, then advanced to play St. Thomas or Mary Hardin Baylor?  They would have been obliterated, and it would have been their only loss.  So people would say the east is so weak. 

And before you Hobart posters lose your mind, your 2011 team probably would have faired better against St. Thomas than Fisher did, but I'm not talking about your 2011 team.  We exposed an overrated Del Val that season. 

Good luck if a team like Framingham State makes it in.  You watch what will happen when the undefeated MAC champ or Hobart plays one of the big boys this year.  A team like Fisher won't be there to clear out some of the ill prepared and posters across the nation will have their ridiculous notions reaffirmed in their minds.

You make some good points re Fisher's performance in the playoffs, but

1. The perception of the East is going to largely be unchanged until we put out a legitimate national title contender, which we'll only prove if we upset one of the big boys. Fisher can certainly boost our profile to some degree by beating a JCU, but they haven't done any really heavy lifting. (Nor has anyone else in the East, so I'm not picking on Fisher)

On balance, Fisher's a positive, because they're doing things no other East team has. Still, a 10-0 Cardinals regular season probably helps more than a two-loss Fisher pulling off a couple of upsets in the playoffs.

2. What good is a team that's super dangerous in the playoffs if they're shooting themselves in the foot, constantly on the bubble, resulting in them missing the playoffs despite some really good teams (2010 and most likely this year) Heck, think about last year's benevolent exposers of the overrated. They were so firmly outside the bubble, after the Ithaca game one of you guys was asking about not starting Fenti against Alfred "to get a jump on next season"

Fisher reminds me of a crazy ex-girlfriend. Sure, sometimes she sneaks in your window at 3 a.m. for some amazing sex. But she'll also probably start a whole bunch of unneeded drama, and break a date at least once a week. Last year, we got the 3 a.m. version. This year, we're probably just getting the migraine.

Bombers - That last paragraph had me spitting up my ginger ale (needed to coat the stomach as I'm headed to a 5 hour tailgate before tonight's Eagles MNF game)

Maybe Wesley changes things for the East next year when they enter the NJAC and stay at or near the top of the BIG FOUR (UMU,UWW,UMHB). I've always thought of the middle of Delaware as being in the East vs. the South anyway

[ITH radio]

I would expect Hobart to beat Fisher this point in the season but I don't think DVC and Fram St could though. Maybe Widener would given their defense but it would come down to matchups.

I'd probably even pick SLU (who definitely and deservedly would make it in as a Pool C this season if they were 9-1) over Fisher in a close one at this point given the athletes in the Larries secondary and how many turnovers their defense can generate. I wish they'd play the Cardinals in an ECAC game but SLU won't file (which is lame IMO).

The LL didn't do itself any favors with a couple of head scratching losses, but I don't think the delta btw the top 2-3 teams in each conference is as far off as you think.

RPI (with Avery at QB) is also probably on par with the Utica/Alfred/Sals range. Unfortunately the bottom of the LL is pretty bad (although come to think of it, they'd probably still be able to beat Wick and Frosty, well MMA probably wouldn't...They are just in really bad shape this season).

I think SC/UofR could beat teams in the bottom third and maybe get a win over a Utica or Alfred too. I would love to see the Pride play Sals in a Triple Option Bowl. The game would probably take less than 2 hrs to play and be over 100 total points (at the half, jk, sort of).

End of day, while Fisher has done well in the playoffs, I don't think anything this season will change the East perception b/c the top 3-4 are so way above the rest of the field. Honestly IC, HOB and WID, etc fate will be decided on their draw and match ups. Some teams match up better than others and catching a break in the brackets (which definitely happened to Fisher in a big way in 2011) is all you need to get on a run.

I question JCU b/c I don't believe the OAC is very strong. The Streaks got a lot of hype for keeping it close with UMU last season but in retrospect we all saw that Mt team was the weakest one in quite some time. Honestly they made the final b/c Wesley started off too slow and NCC choked.

Anyway, long way of saying each year is different. While I wouldn't be surprised if SJF got in they would win 1 maybe 2 games, the losses to Sals and IC point to them not "hanging" with anyone above Tier 3 this season. There will be other teams just like Fisher who b/c of the nature of the tourney (e.g., AQs are king), will be left out too and not have a chance either. It's just the nature of the AQ era, for better or worse, and having Wesley be part of the NJAC will hopefully help the "East" longer term.

Ultimately the biggest issue with most East schools is they don't prioritize FB like the other regions do / can. Fisher is an exception in that regard, taking over the mantle from schools like IC and Union from the 80's, Rowan/NJAC in the 90s-00s who have "diversified" since.