FB: Empire 8

[boobyhasgameyo]

Honestly, I do give Fram more credit than some of the others, so I should stop using them as an example.  It's more directed at the former E8 bottom dweller Norwich and teams like Maritime, Gallaudet (cool story as they were), etc. 

[Pat Coleman]

I'm going to wait and see if Framingham State can give a strong team a game in the playoffs without once-in-a-generation running back Melikke Van Alstyne.

[AUPepBand]

I'm going to wait and see if Framingham State can give a strong team a game in the playoffs without once-in-a-generation running back Melikke Van Alstyne.

Speaking of waiting....Pep is still waiting for ya, Pat...but seriously, no rush. The project has taken on a life of its own and is focused more on "the legend." Will look for assistance later----in a sequel. 

[fisheralum91]

I'm going to wait and see if Framingham State can give a strong team a game in the playoffs without once-in-a-generation running back Melikke Van Alstyne.

Ala the Boltus years at Hartwick?



ooooooooooooooooh I hate Hartwick

[Bombers798891]

My point was never about Fisher playing them closer, it was Fisher eliminating them before they laid an egg as an undefeated east team on a huge level with everyone watching. 

I totally got that.

I guess what confused me was, why do you think it's such a problem if Hobart or Framingham loses big to to one of these teams, but when Fisher loses 52-10 or 45-10 in front of everyone, it's not equally as damaging to the East's reputation?

[Bombers798891]

I'm going to wait and see if Framingham State can give a strong team a game in the playoffs without once-in-a-generation running back Melikke Van Alstyne.

Ala the Boltus years at Hartwick?



ooooooooooooooooh I hate Hartwick

Well, Boltus never did that. The Wick made the playoffs once with him, and got the crap kicked out of them by a Curry team Fisher beat the next week by 31.

[Boxer7806]

I'm going to wait and see if Framingham State can give a strong team a game in the playoffs without once-in-a-generation running back Melikke Van Alstyne.

I think they can. The best Bridgewater team we had in years was from 2 years ago and we had Framingham here on a Friday night and lost 16-0. That was the Framingham team that lost to Cortland. The Bears shut down Van Alstyne pretty well, especially in the second half. He had some great runs, including one where he ran clear back across the field for a big first down, but after the first drive he was held pretty much in check. I was convinced the Bears were going to win that night, but Framingham's defense was outstanding. I just watched them play this weekend and again was convinced the Bears were going to win after having a 10-0 halftime lead. Then they flipped a switch, and to be honest their offense is more explosive now IMO then it was then. They put up 33 in the second half and did it passing and running. I didn't respect their passing game as much 2 years ago as I do now. Obviously they don't run it as well without Van Alstyne, but they still run it pretty damn well. Also that defense is good, just as good as the one from 2 years ago.

[Bombers798891]

So, in looking at the D-III football Top 25, I started thinking about my early-season prediction that the E8 would backslide.

I feel like that's happened. The OOC record was great again, but the cannibalization just killed the conference. We're looking at a 1-bid conference in all likelyhood, and Ithaca's a Cortaca Jug loss away from being 7-3, which probably means a trip to Wesley or Mount in the playoffs, which means 7-4.

More to the point, I just feel like every team had really obvious holes. Ithaca's got a mediocre offense, Fisher can't defend a triple option, Alfred turns the ball over every other play, Buff State, Brockport and Salisbury don't play defense, Frostburg's offense managed to have one decent showing.

Fisher's weakness is admittedly nit-picky and specific. But still, I see a conference with one very good team (Fisher) one good team (IC) a bunch of just okay/average teams, and a lousy one. Still good, just not as strong as our reputation makes us out to be.

[jmcozenlaw]

Wesley was, is and will always be an "Eastern" team............prior to and once part of the NJAC. I don't care what the NCAA needs to do given the plethora of DIII teams in one part of the country and how it moves legitimate Eastern teams down South.

Wesley is a beast and will represent the "Eastern Region" quite well as they will probably get to yet another Final Four and give UMU or D1-AA UW-W a great game

[Bombers798891]

So, when talking about the Bombers' season I got to thinking about the Frostburg State game, and wondered: Is this the biggest shocker in E8 history? A look at the candidates:

Frostburg 38, Ithaca 37 (2 OT), 2014

Why it might be: Frostburg, who averages 17 PPG, put up 38 and 343 yards on arguably the conference's best defense

Why it might not be: Ithaca, conference champ they may be, could end up a not-so-impressive 7-4

Norwich 39, St. John Fisher 34, 2004

Why it might be: Every other E8 team with a pulse that season took Norwich to the cleaners, Fisher went 10-2 that season with a close loss to 11-0 Delaware Valley in the 2nd round of the playoffs

Why it might not be: There are worse crimes than being torched by a future NFL player

Hartwick 31, St. John Fisher 28, 2007

Why it might be: 8-3 record aside, Hartwick finished the season with a +16 point differential. Fisher was +266, and that was AFTER they had to play Mount Union

Why it might not be: Hey, Jason Boltus was good

Salisbury 69, Alfred 0, 2011

Why it might be: How in the world does any top 25 team lose by 69 points at home to anyone other than one of the big 4?

Why it might not be: Salisbury did hang 60 points on four other teams that year

[ExTartanPlayer]

So, when talking about the Bombers' season I got to thinking about the Frostburg State game, and wondered: Is this the biggest shocker in E8 history? A look at the candidates:

Frostburg 38, Ithaca 37 (2 OT), 2014

Why it might be: Frostburg, who averages 17 PPG, put up 38 and 343 yards on arguably the conference's best defense

Why it might not be: Ithaca, conference champ they may be, could end up a not-so-impressive 7-4

Norwich 39, St. John Fisher 34, 2004

Why it might be: Every other E8 team with a pulse that season took Norwich to the cleaners, Fisher went 10-2 that season with a close loss to 11-0 Delaware Valley in the 2nd round of the playoffs

Why it might not be: There are worse crimes than being torched by a future NFL player

Hartwick 31, St. John Fisher 28, 2007

Why it might be: 8-3 record aside, Hartwick finished the season with a +16 point differential. Fisher was +266, and that was AFTER they had to play Mount Union

Why it might not be: Hey, Jason Boltus was good

Salisbury 69, Alfred 0, 2011

Why it might be: How in the world does any top 25 team lose by 69 points at home to anyone other than one of the big 4?

Why it might not be: Salisbury did hang 60 points on four other teams that year

Fun topic.  Are we talking "in the moment" or "in retrospect" when answering?

(reason I mention that is some of those details, such as Garcon eventually becoming the most dynamic player in D3 and an NFL starter & Hartwick eventually making the 2007 playoffs, would not have been known at the time and only make the results more "explainable" in retrospect...if that makes sense)

In either case, the first one I'm crossing off is Frostburg-over-Ithaca this year.  It's been a loony year in the E8 from the get-go, Ithaca had just lost the week before to Buffalo State, and even some of IC's wins early in the season made it pretty clear this was not a juggernaut but a team that was going to have to scrap for it every week.  I don't think this was a total stunner, even with FSU likely to finish at the bottom of the league and IC at the top, as weird as that sounds.  Ironically enough, this is probably the result that would look weirdest "in retrospect" because it involves the league's eighth-best team beating the best team (clarification: this should probably say "first-place team" and "eighth-place team" because it's not totally clear who is really "best" this year with all of the X-beat-Y-beat-Z results), but somehow in the moment it didn't feel nearly as weird as the other ones.  For whatever reason, I wasn't really that shocked when I saw this final score, at least not like I was for some of the other games.

For in-the-moment-WTF-ness, I'm probably taking Hartwick-over-Fisher in 2007.  Wick had opened the season losing by four touchdowns to Western New England (a middle-of-the-pack NEFC team) and even the following week's win over Ithaca didn't totally legitimize them as a contender.  I was a senior in college who was just starting to follow the national D3 scene and I remember being totally flabbergasted when I saw this final score.  Never in a million years did I expect Hartwick to beat SJF (especially since that was the SJF team coming off a helluva game against Mount in the national semifinals the year before; Fisher was ranked #5 in the d3football.com poll the week before that game).

The Salisbury-Alfred score totally shocked me for MOV (actually, I wasn't shocked that they scored 69, but that they won by 69).  Still, it was their first year in the league and I don't think anyone totally knew what they were getting.  Somehow that one didn't surprise me as much as 2007 Wick-Fisher.

[AUPepBand]

Salisbury 69, Alfred 0, 2011

Why it might be: How in the world does any top 25 team lose by 69 points at home to anyone other than one of the big 4?

Why it might not be: Salisbury did hang 60 points on four other teams that year

Must we bring this up, Bombers? Pep was there. Have you ever had one of those days where absolutely everything goes wrong?

It was just a good thing the weather was so awful that hardly anyone saw it in person. The pep band had an EZ-Up tied down to the upper corner of the bleachers with vinyl walls to unsuccessfully keep the driving rain out...but still got drenched.

In the first quarter, AU had a wide open WR at midfield drop a sure TD pass and that opened the floodgates. Gosh that was ugly.

1st    06:23    SAL - Ross Flanigan 8 yd run (Andy Estrain kick ), 11 plays, 64 yards, TOP 5:29; 7-0
2nd    14:55    SAL - Dan Griffin 2 yd run (Andy Estrain kick ), 3 plays, 11 yards, TOP 0:47; 14-0
2nd    13:17    SAL - Doug Ticse 37 yd pass from Dan Griffin (Andy Estrain kick ) 4 plays, 50 yards, TOP 1:22; 21-0
2nd    03:48    SAL - Dan Griffin 2 yd run (Andy Estrain kick ), 1 plays, 2 yards, TOP 0:05; 28-0
2nd    01:35    SAL - Dan Griffin 8 yd run (Andy Estrain kick ), 3 plays, 24 yards, TOP 1:18; 35-0

3rd    11:06    SAL - Dan Griffin 1 yd run (Andy Estrain kick ), 4 plays, 42 yards, TOP 2:17, 42-0
3rd    08:10    SAL - Tyler Curley 15 yd pass from Dan Griffin (Andy Estrain kick ) 3 plays, 58 yards, TOP 1:28, 49-0
3rd    04:02    SAL - James White 35 yd pass from Joey Jones (Andy Estrain kick failed) 4 plays, 56 yards, TOP 2:25, 55-0
4th    04:17    SAL - M. Copenhaver 21 yd run (Andy Estrain kick ), 8 plays, 51 yards, TOP 5:08, 62-0
4th    02:37    SAL - Cody Schecter 0 yd punt return (Andy Estrain kick ), 69-0

AU had four fumbles and one interception. Secky was 6-for-21 for 40 yards and was sacked 3 times. Kilcarr was 0-for-3 with 1 INT.
SU completed 6 of 10 passes for 140 yards, 100 yards more than AU and the Sea Gulls don't usually even throw the ball!
It was 7-0 SU at the end of the first quarter. No way was AU a Top 25 team after the offense gave away a game at Fisher 17-3, Secky threw two pick-6s at home to start the second half in an OT win over Hartwick....and then the Salisbury Tsunami.

Then a snap went over the head of the AU punter, setting SU up at the AU 11 yard line. A couple plays later, it's 14-0.
AU got a good kickoff return to the 45 yard line but fumbled on the first play at midfield. SU scores on a 37 yard TD pass. 21-0 and we're just getting started.
AU puts together an 8-play drive that gains 31 yards then Rockwood pins the Sea Gulls inside their own 10. The teams exchange punts a few times with Kyle Hamby with the wind at his back getting 50+ yard punts while Rockwood against the wind was getting 30+ yard punts. Now back in his own territory, Rockwood has his punt blocked and recovered at the AU 2 yard line.
One Dan Griffin run later, it's 28-0 with 3:48 to go in the first half.
Two AU offensive plays and Secky gets sacked and fumbles the ball at the AU 24.
Griffin runs for 7 yards to the AU 17. Then in what could be the "turning point" in this fiasco, Griffin is thrown for a 5-yard loss....and fumbles but recovers the fumble at the AU 22 BUT the Saxons are flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct and SU gets a first down at the AU 8. Griffin runs it in from there and SU is up 35-0 at halftime.

The second half was more of the same....if there were any wheels left on the bus, they fell off as well.

[Bombers798891]

Wasn't secky tossed/pulled after getting an unsportsmanlike penalty? And then he didn't really ever play again? What happened there? Did he get hurt?

[boobyhasgameyo]

Beginning next year - which conference will be the better overall conference in the east?  The NJAC or the finally all in NY E8(9)? 

We are switching Cortland for Salisbury.  Both teams are down this year compared to where they usually are.  At their best Salisbury has the edge in my mind.  Switching Frostburg for Morrisville isn't even close right now.  One program is up and coming, steadily rising, and just finished 8-2.  The other is Frostburg.  Advantage E8 on that one.

But then the NJAC is bringing in some team from Delaware.  I can't remember their name.  Besley maybe?  Huge addition at the top. 

To me the NJAC is going to be much heavier at the top with Salisbury and Besley, assuming the steaks round back into form.  But the E8 now becomes even more balanced with trading away Frostburg with a decent team on the rise.  Also, if Cortland rounds back into form much like Salisbury, they are a top 25 caliber team. 

I think E8 will be the better conference overall.  But the top of the NJAC could rival the top of any of the other power conferences in a way the E8 just can't match.  They will be like the OAC almost.  One great team, a rotating spot for a really good team, some decent ones, and then there is the bottom of the conference where the quality drops significantly from the top. 

[sjfcards]

Beginning next year - which conference will be the better overall conference in the east?  The NJAC or the finally all in NY E8(9)? 

We are switching Cortland for Salisbury.  Both teams are down this year compared to where they usually are.  At their best Salisbury has the edge in my mind.  Switching Frostburg for Morrisville isn't even close right now.  One program is up and coming, steadily rising, and just finished 8-2.  The other is Frostburg.  Advantage E8 on that one.

But then the NJAC is bringing in some team from Delaware.  I can't remember their name.  Besley maybe?  Huge addition at the top. 

To me the NJAC is going to be much heavier at the top with Salisbury and Besley, assuming the steaks round back into form.  But the E8 now becomes even more balanced with trading away Frostburg with a decent team on the rise.  Also, if Cortland rounds back into form much like Salisbury, they are a top 25 caliber team. 

I think E8 will be the better conference overall.  But the top of the NJAC could rival the top of any of the other power conferences in a way the E8 just can't match.  They will be like the OAC almost.  One great team, a rotating spot for a really good team, some decent ones, and then there is the bottom of the conference where the quality drops significantly from the top.

Top to bottom it is the E8, IMHO. At the very top (2 or 3 spots) Wesley really changes that discussion. They will clearly be the best team in either conference, then it is a Fisher/Ithaca vs Rowan/SU discussion. Not sure how Montclair State and Morrisville will impact that discussion. With the way SU owns Fisher I would say at the top of the conference the NJAC will be better.