FB: Empire 8

[Bombers798891]

Did Whitman play as a freshman?  Are you sure they aren't including postseason stats for him?  Assuming your are correct, I would say the stats should be the same for both players, as that's really more common sense than anything in terms of records.

Ithaca has revamped their website with these new links to records, but if you go online to the media guides, you can see they are broken down into playoff game records as well.  That might lead me to believe that the person who put these new records up didn't double check with how the records should be listed?

On a related note, I actually held an obscure record that had shown up in all the media guides, and my photo was actually up there for a few years  .  I noticed one year that my record was beaten out by a person from 1979 or 1981.  I haven't checked in a few years, but that led me to believe that other people might add input or information for various reasons.  I would find it hard to believe that an SID or intern would go back to 1979 and find this obscure stat which had to do with a single game.

I know they're not including his postseason totals. Nick Ismailoff had 54 catches in the 1991 regular season and 39 in the playoffs. Ithaca's single season record holder is listed as having 74. In fact, that season alone would put him in the top 10 for career catches in IC history as of 2010, but he's not listed in that media guide as being there.

The NCAA's decision to include postseason stats in season/career stats did not begin until 2002, so I get why the difference exists. I feel like they should apply this ruling retroactively, however and include everyone's postseason stats. It gives the record books a massive modern bias, because the best players might get an extra season/season-and-a-half worth of games to amass their stats.

[Jonny Utah]

Did Whitman play as a freshman?  Are you sure they aren't including postseason stats for him?  Assuming your are correct, I would say the stats should be the same for both players, as that's really more common sense than anything in terms of records.

Ithaca has revamped their website with these new links to records, but if you go online to the media guides, you can see they are broken down into playoff game records as well.  That might lead me to believe that the person who put these new records up didn't double check with how the records should be listed?

On a related note, I actually held an obscure record that had shown up in all the media guides, and my photo was actually up there for a few years  .  I noticed one year that my record was beaten out by a person from 1979 or 1981.  I haven't checked in a few years, but that led me to believe that other people might add input or information for various reasons.  I would find it hard to believe that an SID or intern would go back to 1979 and find this obscure stat which had to do with a single game.

I know they're not including his postseason totals. Nick Ismailoff had 54 catches in the 1991 regular season and 39 in the playoffs. Ithaca's single season record holder is listed as having 74. In fact, that season alone would put him in the top 10 for career catches in IC history as of 2010, but he's not listed in that media guide as being there.

The NCAA's decision to include postseason stats in season/career stats did not begin until 2002, so I get why the difference exists. I feel like they should apply this ruling retroactively, however and include everyone's postseason stats. It gives the record books a massive modern bias, because the best players might get an extra season/season-and-a-half worth of games to amass their stats.

Ok, but are you looking at Ithaca's record book?  Or would the NCAA go back and add those totals if Whitman were close to any sort of record today?

[bman]

The NCAA's decision to include postseason stats in season/career stats did not begin until 2002, so I get why the difference exists. I feel like they should apply this ruling retroactively, however and include everyone's postseason stats. It gives the record books a massive modern bias, because the best players might get an extra season/season-and-a-half worth of games to amass their stats.

Does the NCAA treat Conference Championships (Bowl Games) separately for FBS teams, or are they lumped in with the regular season games?

[Bombers798891]

Ok, but are you looking at Ithaca's record book?  Or would the NCAA go back and add those totals if Whitman were close to any sort of record today?

I'm looking at IC's 2010 media guide, mainly because it's the most recent one I have.

The NCAA will not go back and add it in, and, from what I was told, it was suggested that schools follow that tack. But, apparently, they don't have to, and some schools have added everything together.

Honestly, if I were Ithaca, I'd absolutely do that. I have nothing against Donovan, or any other modern players, but the way things are really shortchanges some of Ithaca's great players of the past. And not just Wittman. Bob Ferrigno loses out on 734 rushing yards. Paul Parker loses out on 493 and NINE touchdowns in a single season. Ismailoff's 1991 goes from very good to otherwordly when you throw in his insane playoff numbers from that season. Todd Wilkowski adds like 25% to his career yards. George Mack might be IC's all-time leading receiver by yardage, instead of being, I think, 5th (I'd have to do some math on that one).

I mean, I know I'm probably the only person who cares about this stuff, but I think it matters, because I think it more accurately reflects the team's history. The offensive era we live in slants this stuff anyway, but this just makes it look even worse.

[Jonny Utah]

Ok, but are you looking at Ithaca's record book?  Or would the NCAA go back and add those totals if Whitman were close to any sort of record today?

I'm looking at IC's 2010 media guide, mainly because it's the most recent one I have.

The NCAA will not go back and add it in, and, from what I was told, it was suggested that schools follow that tack. But, apparently, they don't have to, and some schools have added everything together.

Honestly, if I were Ithaca, I'd absolutely do that. I have nothing against Donovan, or any other modern players, but the way things are really shortchanges some of Ithaca's great players of the past. And not just Wittman. Bob Ferrigno loses out on 734 rushing yards. Paul Parker loses out on 493 and NINE touchdowns in a single season. Ismailoff's 1991 goes from very good to otherwordly when you throw in his insane playoff numbers from that season. Todd Wilkowski adds like 25% to his career yards. George Mack might be IC's all-time leading receiver by yardage, instead of being, I think, 5th (I'd have to do some math on that one).

I mean, I know I'm probably the only person who cares about this stuff, but I think it matters, because I think it more accurately reflects the team's history. The offensive era we live in slants this stuff anyway, but this just makes it look even worse.

No I agree with you.  Ithaca is in a special category as well because they ran a form of the triple option from 19??-1992.  Many teams are like that today though with all the no huddle/spread going around.  Ithaca at least runs your traditional single-back west coast offense.  Actually, how would you categorize Ithaca's offense.  They use a fullback less than 50% of the time I'd say so I'm not sure you could call them an I-Pro offense.  Multiple I would probably be the best way to describe them.

[Bombers798891]

No I agree with you.  Ithaca is in a special category as well because they ran a form of the triple option from 19??-1992.  Many teams are like that today though with all the no huddle/spread going around.  Ithaca at least runs your traditional single-back west coast offense.  Actually, how would you categorize Ithaca's offense.  They use a fullback less than 50% of the time I'd say so I'm not sure you could call them an I-Pro offense.  Multiple I would probably be the best way to describe them.

They actually ran the veer option, I think. They called Wittman and Parker fullbacks, but they were pretty much tailbacks. They were not diving into the line most plays. I'd say the offense sort of went modern in 1991. They didn't throw a ton, but again, Ismailoff had 39 catches for 599 yards in four playoff games that season. The yards were actually a playoff record that stood long after the playoffs were expanded and passing became the thing. He absolutely torched everyone he played, and it was part of the game plan, not some "Hey, they won't expect this" nonsense like we see from most triple option teams.

I would agree that multiple I is probably how I'd describe them now.

The ironic thing about IC's records is that despite the run heavy system and great backs, it's the passing/receiving numbers that probably change the most. I don't know if Ismailoff would appear on the career top-10 list, though he most likely would. The single-season list would make him look totally different. Right now, he's 7th in receptions and 4th in yards. He'd move to first in both, probably by a wide margin. Mack would also add another 6 TDs to what I think is his career record of 22, and coupled with the his new yardage total, might actually get his due as one of the best WRs in school history. Even Todd Wilkowski would jump from 5th to 3rd in total offense, and considering the names he'd pass, he'd probably be looked at differently.

Do the math, IC

[Jonny Utah]

No I agree with you.  Ithaca is in a special category as well because they ran a form of the triple option from 19??-1992.  Many teams are like that today though with all the no huddle/spread going around.  Ithaca at least runs your traditional single-back west coast offense.  Actually, how would you categorize Ithaca's offense.  They use a fullback less than 50% of the time I'd say so I'm not sure you could call them an I-Pro offense.  Multiple I would probably be the best way to describe them.

They actually ran the veer option, I think. They called Wittman and Parker fullbacks, but they were pretty much tailbacks. They were not diving into the line most plays. I'd say the offense sort of went modern in 1991. They didn't throw a ton, but again, Ismailoff had 39 catches for 599 yards in four playoff games that season. The yards were actually a playoff record that stood long after the playoffs were expanded and passing became the thing. He absolutely torched everyone he played, and it was part of the game plan, not some "Hey, they won't expect this" nonsense like we see from most triple option teams.

I would agree that multiple I is probably how I'd describe them now.

The ironic thing about IC's records is that despite the run heavy system and great backs, it's the passing/receiving numbers that probably change the most. I don't know if Ismailoff would appear on the career top-10 list, though he most likely would. The single-season list would make him look totally different. Right now, he's 7th in receptions and 4th in yards. He'd move to first in both, probably by a wide margin. Mack would also add another 6 TDs to what I think is his career record of 22, and coupled with the his new yardage total, might actually get his due as one of the best WRs in school history. Even Todd Wilkowski would jump from 5th to 3rd in total offense, and considering the names he'd pass, he'd probably be looked at differently.

Do the math, IC

Yep, you are right.  Ithaca had a 2 back option-veer offense.  The 1979 Stagg Bowl is up on youtube as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey02CoAF8s0

Think about that though.  Verne Lundquist doing the Stagg Bowl on ABC?!?!

[Pat Coleman]

So, I got to thinking about something the other day, and I wanted to see what you guys thought of it. It's the offseason, so why not?

I was reading about this whole A-Rod/Ruth RBI thing, and I realized that something similar went on with IC football.

Jamie Donovan is Ithaca's career rushing leader, with 3,844 yards. Jeff Wittman is 2nd with 3,410. But of course, Donovan's totals include his postseason numbers, and Wittman's don't.

If we include postseason rushing totals for Wittman, his number goes up to 4,091, making him the leader. However, if we take away the postseason numbers for Donovan, he has 3,631, so he'd still be ahead of Wittman.

So, "officially" Donovan is IC's all-time leading rusher. But is he really?

I mean, I could go either way on whether or not the postseason stats should be included. (Personally, I lean towards no, at least for D-III football) But, if we're going to include them, it kind of seems stupid that we're not going back and including them for everyone.

Sure, there's always going to be things we can't know and can debate. Games change and rules change, and it becomes easier/harder to rack up certain numbers in whatever context. But right now, the way playoffs stats count for some guys and not for others seems like willfully ignoring history to me. It's one thing to accept that everyone's career is different. Some guys got to play all four years of their career when there were 10 game regular seasons and five playoffs rounds. Others guys got hurt, or were buried on the depth charts for a year. That can't be helped. Everyone's career is different.

But this is different. This isn't about saying some guys' careers take a different path, or that we might not have accurate records. This is simply counting all of some guys' careers and only parts of others. This strikes me as profoundly stupid.

The NCAA won't count some people's postseason totals, but schools should. They are the schools' records, after all. Count all the games.

[Hampton U SID]

FYI on the Hartwick-Apprentice School game that it will count for them as we are approved to be a countable game.  The NCAA has recognized us since the mid 1980s as a countable game and continues to do so after the announcement of those schools that dont count.

[Bombers798891]

So, I'm bored, and figured a little IC football preview was in order...

Offense: These are where all the question marks are. Ithaca graduates a ton of the pieces from this unit. Ithaca loses its starting QB, its top three pass catchers, and 4/5ths of its offensive line. To say their will be question marks is an understatement. The only returning impact players are RB Tristan Brown (621 yards), WR Chris Bauer (38-482-3), OL Scott Anderson (3-year starter) and all-purpose Josh Oliver (95 carries, 15 catches). Kyle Hastings also brings back his 8 catches

I suppose the good news, if there is any, is that Ithaca's shown they can be successful without consistently scoring in the 30s, so it's not like there's a super high bar to clear.

Defense: This has been the better of the two units for several years now, and where there's some room for excitement. Ithaca returns three experienced secondary members, 1st-team all-E8 CB Malik Morris (58 Tackles, 3 INT, 11 PD), CB Ryan Michaels (31 Tackles, 2 INT, 8 PD) and S Noah Poskanzer (64 Tackles, 2 INT, 8 PD)

On the defensive line, Ithaca brings back experience as well Rob Barberi (9 TFL, 3 sacks), Schnayder Termidor (6 sacks), and Logan Murphy (3.5 Tackles for loss, 2 sacks)

Linebacker is the biggest question, as only Kenneth Bradley returns. There are two silver linings here. One is that Bradley is awesome (81 tackles, 4 TFL as a Freshman). The second is that McDonough has a good track record of developing linebackers quickly—the unit lost three starters after 2013 and were fine last year.

Special Teams: A mixed bag. Garret Nicholson graduates, but I see no reason to think Max Rottenecker can't ably replace him. Sam Carney also graduates, but Josh Oliver's shown flashes of being a great return man—though he mist develop consistency. Trevon Perez-Tucker has also shown flashes. Mike Lopez returns to punt.

Overall outlook: Meh. The defense returns enough talent and has the track record of developing talent quickly, so I expect them to be strong. But Ithaca's had a mediocre/average offense for several years now, and they graduate nearly everyone of impact. I don't think we're looking at 2011 bad, only because I can't imagine the OL/QB situation being that bad again, but if I had to pick a team the 2015 Bombers remind me of, it might be that one.

[sjfcards]

The preseason Top 25 is out without any surprises at the top (UWW, UMU, Linfield, UMHB, and Wesley in the top 5). Closer to home Hobart is 16th, Fisher is 19th and SLU and Ithaca are both receiving votes.

[sjfcards]

So what early season out of conference game is everyone looking forward to most? I keep looking at that Hobart/Ithaca game. Reigning E8 vs LL champions, played a close game in the playoffs last year, and one of those games that used to be played every year. Could be fun.

[fisheralum91]

I think week one matchup with TM is a biggee for Fisher to get out of the gate.

[sjfcards]

For the Fisher folks, there is a nice little story on the Fisher page about being included in the pre-season rankings. It looks like Nigolian will be back as some had thought, which is huge news for Fisher. The offense should be solid with Fusco, Chambers, Collichio and Nigolian (not to mention Campese) and the Defense has several key guys back as well. Could be a fun year to be a Fisher fan!

http://athletics.sjfc.edu/news/2015/7/15/FB_0715151557.aspx?path=football

[fisheralum91]

No E8 chatter?
Sheesh- am I the only one whose golf game is frustrating so much that I want Fall to get here so we can get our football fix?