FB: Empire 8

[AUPepBand]

Hartwick also has the common tie to many LL schools in that they sponsor a D1 athletic program within a D3 school.

What sport at Wick is D1? Badminton? Bowling? Table Tennis? Mini-Golf? ...just curious 

Oneonta was at one time home to the National Soccer Hall of Fame. But that was closed in 2010 as the National Soccer Hall of Fame Museum changed its operating model due to financial considerations.

Hartwick's D1 soccer program competes in the Sun Belt Conference.

[Div3Fan]

Hartwick's D1 program competes in the Sun Belt Conference.

That's unnerving

[Jonny Utah]

Anyway, no Ithaca does not have the horses to run the West coast offense anymore.  I've talked about it a bunch of times with that fullback simply getting in the way on pretty much every run play.  Like I said before (as did you), Ithaca needs a change on offense that much is clear.

Serious, non-combative question though:

What offensive style does Ithaca have the horses to run? Ithaca's scored 12 points in their last 10 quarters, all of them in garbage time. That goes beyond a scheme issue.

I don't know as much about Xs and Os as you, but here's what I see:

—If you take away Tristan Brown's three longest runs of the season, he is averaging just 3.1 YPC. I know that every running back's numbers look worse when you do this, but still, that's a really low number to have when I'm only taking away three carries. That speaks to an inability of the offensive line to open up consistent holes to allow Ithaca to gain 4, 5, 6 yards a carry more consistently.

—Ithaca's WR play has remained average at best, with the Bombers averaging just 10.9 yards per catch, down from last season's 11.1 (which wasn't that good either).

—Ithaca's QB play has deteriorated a ton. They're completing just 58% of their passes (down from 66%), and they're throwing interceptions every 19.6 attempts, more than twice the rate of last year. That completion rate isn't great considering how vanilla most of ICs passes are, either.

(To be fair, some of this is probably injury related. Brian Balsamo, who had 17 catches in the first 4 games, hasn't played since. Kyle Hastings (24 catches in 6 games) has missed the last two games. Every offense is going to struggle when two of their top 3 receiving targets are out.)

Again, just one man's opinion, but I don't think it's a scheme issue. I think it's a talent issue

I think it has to be a wholesale change in philosophy and it won't work in one or two years.  X and O's wise, Ithaca seems to run too much power (5 linemen and an additional 1 or 2 players like fullback and TE blocking for one running back).  I also think they run too much fullback plays in general, and their fullbacks haven't been great since maybe Jamie Free was playing.  I'd love to see them run an offense like Stanford, Wisconsin or LSU runs (a lot of power running games), but they don't have the oline to do it, and they aren't able to recruit the linemen or running backs to do it apparently either, and that is where the problem lies, is that they are trying to run a system (and recruiting for that system I assume), but they aren't able to get the players to make that system work. 

Or maybe the coaches just aren't getting it done either, that is also a possibility, so they might need a change there as well (on offense at least)   
 
In the end you might be right, and maybe they are just having a down year.  And I don't know if there are any hurdles in the admissions or financial aid game either. I just think that you need to look at getting back to that national championship level, and this system isn't getting you there. 

[Bombers798891]

I just think that you need to look at getting back to that national championship level, and this system isn't getting you there.

Here's where I'm going to disagree with you. Look, I want IC to be successful nationally as much as you, but barring a dramatic change in the landscape, both at the institutional level and the D-III football level, that's just not going to happen.

Ultimately, while I think the East can be a competitive region, there haven't been national championship caliber teams in this area since what, Fisher in 2006? And all they needed was the best player in E8 history, four guys who were multiple-time all-americans, facilities that few in the country could match, and an administration committed to expanding athletics.

It took a perfect storm of everything to get Fisher there for one year. Right now, the highest potential upside I see for Ithaca is essentially, what they did from 2001-2004. They went 37-10, won four playoff games, and had what I still believe to be Mike Welch's best team ever (2004).

Can they be better than they are now? Absolutely. But there's nothing they can do, as a program, IMO, to get to the national championship level. That all comes from things beyond their paygrade

[Jonny Utah]

I just think that you need to look at getting back to that national championship level, and this system isn't getting you there.

Here's where I'm going to disagree with you. Look, I want IC to be successful nationally as much as you, but barring a dramatic change in the landscape, both at the institutional level and the D-III football level, that's just not going to happen.

Ultimately, while I think the East can be a competitive region, there haven't been national championship caliber teams in this area since what, Fisher in 2006? And all they needed was the best player in E8 history, four guys who were multiple-time all-americans, facilities that few in the country could match, and an administration committed to expanding athletics.

It took a perfect storm of everything to get Fisher there for one year. Right now, the highest potential upside I see for Ithaca is essentially, what they did from 2001-2004. They went 37-10, won four playoff games, and had what I still believe to be Mike Welch's best team ever (2004).

Can they be better than they are now? Absolutely. But there's nothing they can do, as a program, IMO, to get to the national championship level. That all comes from things beyond their paygrade

Well you at least need to look at what needs to be done to at least in terms of trying to get to that next level.  It starts with recruiting.  Why are you losing out on a recruit that chooses SJF, Cortland, Alfred, or Hobart over Ithaca?  Money and admissions are probably the first big two decisions, but after that is where you need to ask the big question.  What was the "perfect storm" that SJF had?  You can just say it's impossible, even though from an empirical standpoint, the top 5 seems impossible to crack.  I also think a new system could only help.

Anyway, I'm just throwing some things out there in terms of internal questions than need to be asked.

[AUPepBand]

I just think that you need to look at getting back to that national championship level, and this system isn't getting you there.

Here's where I'm going to disagree with you. Look, I want IC to be successful nationally as much as you, but barring a dramatic change in the landscape, both at the institutional level and the D-III football level, that's just not going to happen.

Ultimately, while I think the East can be a competitive region, there haven't been national championship caliber teams in this area since what, Fisher in 2006? And all they needed was the best player in E8 history, four guys who were multiple-time all-americans, facilities that few in the country could match, and an administration committed to expanding athletics.

It took a perfect storm of everything to get Fisher there for one year. Right now, the highest potential upside I see for Ithaca is essentially, what they did from 2001-2004. They went 37-10, won four playoff games, and had what I still believe to be Mike Welch's best team ever (2004).

Can they be better than they are now? Absolutely. But there's nothing they can do, as a program, IMO, to get to the national championship level. That all comes from things beyond their paygrade

Pep was thinking about the Ithaca situation last night. The Bomber program hit its stride and got its national championships at prime time.
The advantage that Ithaca had at that time was 1) James Butterfield  2) NCAA playoffs were in their infancy  3) Ithaca had been playing bigger D2 schools for years and therefore was prepared for a higher level of competition

There is a glut of very good intercollegiate football programs in the East, all competing, for the most part, from the same pool of high school talent. There's a myriad of reasons kids make their college choices. From Pep's perspective, it seems the end product is a lot of good D3 college football programs, but there isn't one program (UMU) that stands above all the rest as the place to go to play football.

As Pep has already stated, there are a lot of good starting line-ups but when the injuries begin to take their toll, you see it in Saturday's scores.

[Bombers798891]

Well you at least need to look at what needs to be done to at least in terms of trying to get to that next level.  It starts with recruiting.  Why are you losing out on a recruit that chooses SJF, Cortland, Alfred, or Hobart over Ithaca?  Money and admissions are probably the first big two decisions, but after that is where you need to ask the big question.  What was the "perfect storm" that SJF had?  You can just say it's impossible, even though from an empirical standpoint, the top 5 seems impossible to crack.  I also think a new system could only help.

As you said, some of this cannot be helped at all. Admissions, financial aid, and probably football facilities are going to lag behind some of those schools

I've always wondered if part of it was simply that Ithaca doesn't try to play into the hype. I heard a story about a guy being recruited by Ithaca and Hobart, who was impressed by how, when he went into the locker room, they had his name and number in a locker already. Whereas, when he went to Ithaca, it was more straightforward and businesslike. Ithaca's recently updated their uniforms, but for years they were the same they've always were (bland)

As an institution, I think Ithaca's athletic department has, for a long time, operated under the "we've always done it this way" mentality. At least it's an ethos, but still. Not to sound like an old man, but kids today care a lot more about all the other stuff than the core of "What's the football here like?" that they used to, and I'm not sure Ithaca—or Mike—is super interested in playing that game.

And I'm okay with it, I guess. They can still win conference titles and playoff games in the right years. And, as I always say, it could be worse: We could be Union

[Jonny Utah]

I just think that you need to look at getting back to that national championship level, and this system isn't getting you there.

Here's where I'm going to disagree with you. Look, I want IC to be successful nationally as much as you, but barring a dramatic change in the landscape, both at the institutional level and the D-III football level, that's just not going to happen.

Ultimately, while I think the East can be a competitive region, there haven't been national championship caliber teams in this area since what, Fisher in 2006? And all they needed was the best player in E8 history, four guys who were multiple-time all-americans, facilities that few in the country could match, and an administration committed to expanding athletics.

It took a perfect storm of everything to get Fisher there for one year. Right now, the highest potential upside I see for Ithaca is essentially, what they did from 2001-2004. They went 37-10, won four playoff games, and had what I still believe to be Mike Welch's best team ever (2004).

Can they be better than they are now? Absolutely. But there's nothing they can do, as a program, IMO, to get to the national championship level. That all comes from things beyond their paygrade

Pep was thinking about the Ithaca situation last night. The Bomber program hit its stride and got its national championships at prime time.
The advantage that Ithaca had at that time was 1) James Butterfield  2) NCAA playoffs were in their infancy  3) Ithaca had been playing bigger D2 schools for years and therefore was prepared for a higher level of competition

There is a glut of very good intercollegiate football programs in the East, all competing, for the most part, from the same pool of high school talent. There's a myriad of reasons kids make their college choices. From Pep's perspective, it seems the end product is a lot of good D3 college football programs, but there isn't one program (UMU) that stands above all the rest as the place to go to play football.

As Pep has already stated, there are a lot of good starting line-ups but when the injuries begin to take their toll, you see it in Saturday's scores.

Last night they had an ESPN e:60 on Colorado coach Bill McCartney.  Great show with some insight on how he turned that program from worst to first in a few years, and recruiting seemed to be he main focus.  I find it hard to believe that d3 is radically different, and might be easier because you can actually recruit more players and as bad as it sounds make more empty promises to players. 

Interesting point about the d2 schedule Ithaca used to play.  How about a Cornell/IC matchup?  That program needs a kick in the ass as well.  Maybe IC should look to Colgate or Holy Cross for a non-league game?  I'm sure those teams don't what to play any d3 school, but there must be some years where one of those schools is looking for a game.

[bman]

I just think that you need to look at getting back to that national championship level, and this system isn't getting you there.

Here's where I'm going to disagree with you. Look, I want IC to be successful nationally as much as you, but barring a dramatic change in the landscape, both at the institutional level and the D-III football level, that's just not going to happen.

Ultimately, while I think the East can be a competitive region, there haven't been national championship caliber teams in this area since what, Fisher in 2006? And all they needed was the best player in E8 history, four guys who were multiple-time all-americans, facilities that few in the country could match, and an administration committed to expanding athletics.

It took a perfect storm of everything to get Fisher there for one year. Right now, the highest potential upside I see for Ithaca is essentially, what they did from 2001-2004. They went 37-10, won four playoff games, and had what I still believe to be Mike Welch's best team ever (2004).

Can they be better than they are now? Absolutely. But there's nothing they can do, as a program, IMO, to get to the national championship level. That all comes from things beyond their paygrade

Pep was thinking about the Ithaca situation last night. The Bomber program hit its stride and got its national championships at prime time.
The advantage that Ithaca had at that time was 1) James Butterfield  2) NCAA playoffs were in their infancy  3) Ithaca had been playing bigger D2 schools for years and therefore was prepared for a higher level of competition

There is a glut of very good intercollegiate football programs in the East, all competing, for the most part, from the same pool of high school talent. There's a myriad of reasons kids make their college choices. From Pep's perspective, it seems the end product is a lot of good D3 college football programs, but there isn't one program (UMU) that stands above all the rest as the place to go to play football.

As Pep has already stated, there are a lot of good starting line-ups but when the injuries begin to take their toll, you see it in Saturday's scores.

Last night they had an ESPN e:60 on Colorado coach Bill McCartney.  Great show with some insight on how he turned that program from worst to first in a few years, and recruiting seemed to be he main focus.  I find it hard to believe that d3 is radically different, and might be easier because you can actually recruit more players and as bad as it sounds make more empty promises to players. 

Interesting point about the d2 schedule Ithaca used to play.  How about a Cornell/IC matchup?  That program needs a kick in the ass as well.  Maybe IC should look to Colgate or Holy Cross for a non-league game?  I'm sure those teams don't what to play any d3 school, but there must be some years where one of those schools is looking for a game.

It's funny about how the media can change perception.   I remember when they came to prominence.  At the time, I remember wondering how they were able to turn things around so quickly. (I was a huge Nebraska fan back then...and still am even though it's hard...)   Once the arrests started occurring, the program was portrayed as totally dirty.   I remember thinking that McCartney was totally dirty (On a John Calipari level in my mind)...
Earlier this year, when Colorado began making a turnaround, I was trying to remember McCartney's name but couldn't...but remember he was replaced by Neuheisel (with his own scandals...)
Needless to saw, saw the program last night and was shocked to learn some of the truth behind the team, and was as shocked to learn that McCartney was a man of faith, and a truly good man...
Now my foundation of truths has been shaken....now it will totally crumble if Fisher makes the improbably comeback to with the E8!

[Bombers798891]

I find it hard to believe that d3 is radically different, and might be easier because you can actually recruit more players and as bad as it sounds make more empty promises to players. 

Interesting point about the d2 schedule Ithaca used to play.

But it has changed. A lot. Look at the Empire 8 conference. When Ithaca was competing for national titles, Buff State and Fisher were club teams. Morrisville, Hartwick, and Utica didn't have teams. You did have SUNY Albany and UB who have moved on, but on the whole, the area has gained more teams than they've lost.

And the quality of play has gotten better as well. Brockport was terrible (they lost 24 games in a row at one point in the early 80s). Same with Hobart (8-34 from 1987-1991) and Cortland (they actually put dropping football to a student vote)

Ithaca HAD to play D-II schools in the 1980s/early 1990s, because the quality of play in upstate NY was nowhere near as good, and Union spent the decade ducking them "playing like-minded institutions."

[ExTartanPlayer]

Last night they had an ESPN e:60 on Colorado coach Bill McCartney.  Great show with some insight on how he turned that program from worst to first in a few years, and recruiting seemed to be he main focus.  I find it hard to believe that d3 is radically different, and might be easier because you can actually recruit more players and as bad as it sounds make more empty promises to players. 

Wait, what?  It's hard to believe that turning around Colorado is radically different from turning around a D3 program?  I mean, if you boil it down to something like "we should recruit better guys" then I guess those are both common threads, but that's about where the similarities are going to end.  Every Division III coaching staff wants to recruit the best guys they can get to come play football at their school.  That shouldn't be news to anyone here.  But what's the extra golden carrot you suggest that they dangle that they aren't already dangling?  Remember, in Division III 2015:

- No scholarships to offer
- No boosters to pay players
- Every team already has or is building a decent facility (and if they aren't, the coach can't do anything about that; as Bombers said, this is an institution-level issue)
- Every team can promise early playing time; as a recruiting tool that isn't much help (and really good programs don't promise early PT unless the guy is actually going to play)

So what are the things that the 1990's Bill McCartney strategy is going to bring to 2015 Ithaca?  What are the "empty promises" you're talking about that carry some recruiting weight?  Remember, just a couple years ago the Emory & Henry coach lost his job because of a purportedly broken promise about a "scholarship" awarded to a player (I don't think that the player and his family seemed all that credible, either).  If you do make an empty promise about something like that, and the family calls you on it, there's a good chance you're losing that job.  If you make empty promises about playing time, that won't get you very far (and it won't get you national-title kids that want to play for Mount Union or Whitewater; those kids aren't going to come to Ithaca just because you promised they could start as a freshman).

I'm not saying that all coaches recruit equally well - that's obviously not true - but I'm curious what stone is being left unturned here, short of the point Bombers always (correctly) makes, that most institutions are not going to make a massive commitment to upgrade the football program from "regional power" to "competing for national titles." 

[Jonny Utah]

Last night they had an ESPN e:60 on Colorado coach Bill McCartney.  Great show with some insight on how he turned that program from worst to first in a few years, and recruiting seemed to be he main focus.  I find it hard to believe that d3 is radically different, and might be easier because you can actually recruit more players and as bad as it sounds make more empty promises to players. 

Wait, what?  It's hard to believe that turning around Colorado is radically different from turning around a D3 program?  I mean, if you boil it down to something like "we should recruit better guys" then I guess those are both common threads, but that's about where the similarities are going to end.  Every Division III coaching staff wants to recruit the best guys they can get to come play football at their school.  That shouldn't be news to anyone here.  But what's the extra golden carrot you suggest that they dangle that they aren't already dangling?  Remember, in Division III 2015:

- No scholarships to offer
- No boosters to pay players
- Every team already has or is building a decent facility (and if they aren't, the coach can't do anything about that; as Bombers said, this is an institution-level issue)
- Every team can promise early playing time; as a recruiting tool that isn't much help (and really good programs don't promise early PT unless the guy is actually going to play)

So what are the things that the 1990's Bill McCartney strategy is going to bring to 2015 Ithaca?  What are the "empty promises" you're talking about that carry some recruiting weight?  Remember, just a couple years ago the Emory & Henry coach lost his job because of a purportedly broken promise about a "scholarship" awarded to a player (I don't think that the player and his family seemed all that credible, either).  If you do make an empty promise about something like that, and the family calls you on it, there's a good chance you're losing that job.  If you make empty promises about playing time, that won't get you very far (and it won't get you national-title kids that want to play for Mount Union or Whitewater; those kids aren't going to come to Ithaca just because you promised they could start as a freshman).

I'm not saying that all coaches recruit equally well - that's obviously not true - but I'm curious what stone is being left unturned here, short of the point Bombers always (correctly) makes, that most institutions are not going to make a massive commitment to upgrade the football program from "regional power" to "competing for national titles."

Would you be more shocked if Kansas or Ithaca college won a national championship in 5 or 10 years? I'd be more shocked if Kansas was wouldn't you?  I guess you can throw in Purdue, Vanderbilt, Boston college, Indiana, Minnesota, etc.  Colorado had to convince players that were committed to Nebraska to change their mind and come to a school that was apparently at rock bottom.  Can you do that at john Carroll or D3 where you can recruit and tell the same story to everyone (you will play here). At d1 schools, you only do that to kids you offer, as the kid from south central LA isn't going to pay room and board at Colorado when some Big West, Big Sky, or other minor conference is going to give you a full ride and most lkely playing time.  Now I'm sure there are some financial issue/admission games at the d3 level, but the "golden carrot" is that promise of  playing time (sorry if I didn't make that clear), something d1 coaches can't and don't really offer as the full ride speaks for itself in terms of interest.

I don't know what the recruiting edge is for Ithaca, but I'm throwing it out there.  For Colorado, it was a coach who told a kid in south central LA who was committed to Nebraska to leave the house for two hours while he talked with his mother about he bible.  I'm not sure Father Welch could do the same thing, but I don't think it's impossible to get get better players, and I'm kind of just opening it up for discussion.

[Jonny Utah]

I find it hard to believe that d3 is radically different, and might be easier because you can actually recruit more players and as bad as it sounds make more empty promises to players. 

Interesting point about the d2 schedule Ithaca used to play.

But it has changed. A lot. Look at the Empire 8 conference. When Ithaca was competing for national titles, Buff State and Fisher were club teams. Morrisville, Hartwick, and Utica didn't have teams. You did have SUNY Albany and UB who have moved on, but on the whole, the area has gained more teams than they've lost.

And the quality of play has gotten better as well. Brockport was terrible (they lost 24 games in a row at one point in the early 80s). Same with Hobart (8-34 from 1987-1991) and Cortland (they actually put dropping football to a student vote)

Ithaca HAD to play D-II schools in the 1980s/early 1990s, because the quality of play in upstate NY was nowhere near as good, and Union spent the decade ducking them "playing like-minded institutions."

Oh I'm not saying they can do it the same way they used to do it.  And yes, it has changed and it is harder in a lot of ways. 

[pg04]

I actually would consider it more likely that Kansas makes it to a championship game in the next 5 years than Ithaca. The Top 2 to 4 of D3 is almost uncrackable while a random team in D1 power conference seems like they could go on a run (Iowa?)

[Jonny Utah]

Also tartan, I do believe recruiting sometimes comes down to the coach/player conversation.  That is the same at every level.  Some coaches are better than others, and bombers seems to have a handle on how Ithaca deals with these conversations, (and I get the same impression as well). That might need to change.